It is not surprising when The Nation features an article about the Bush administration’s assault on women’s reproductive rights. But when the New York Times prints a huge Sunday editorial titled “The War Against Women” that takes up two-thirds of the op-ed space, something is afoot. That January 12 piece gathered together a range of seemingly minor items—who was appointed… return to article
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Reader Comments (85)Page 1 of 1 pagesI have to say that in Afghanistan, only on Kabul is the civl rights of women slightly improved and only for a time. The invasion was a farce for womens right and only a ruise to get public support for war. period.......and they are quickly reverting to the same morality enforcing as befor..publicity would show less than stunning victory so sheding light on it will not happen!
Posted by LARRY TALLY on Feb 10, 2003 at 6:29 PM Just as ‘reefer madness’ was a joke in the 60’s and 70’s, so too will abstenence only (ignorance is bliss) education will be in the near future as it is now with the teens being crammed with the idiocy today by an ignorant ‘w’ administration. When will we ever learn that the lies even with a bible beating can’t work!!!!
Posted by j tally on Feb 10, 2003 at 6:34 PM When will we say enough already!?!? It’s past time for us to pull a Serbia and take over the white house like the Serbians took over the parliment in Belgrade. These psycho’s are ruining our country in a million different ways.
Posted by Aubrianna on Feb 10, 2003 at 11:06 PM After reading this article, I am having trouble getting my jaw to close! The willful ignorance of so-called “Christians” is beyond appalling--it is downright devilish.
Posted by Charlotte Masterman on Feb 11, 2003 at 11:21 AM I agree, it begs me to augment the spelling to KOMPASSIONATE, KHRISTIAN, KONSERVATIVES using all caps and all k’s. I hope we can hold out till 2004, and the democratic party can at least impress on the lazy-assed voters how important it is to vote this crazy-world-domination by God crowd the hell out of politics in this modern ‘enlightend’ time of human advancements.
Posted by j tally on Feb 11, 2003 at 11:28 AM As an “old” lady, might I wickedly suggest castration instead of tying women’s legs together? Fair?
Posted by Janet Dales on Feb 11, 2003 at 12:17 PM well thats great for bush. im a 14 year old high school student and i can tell you that abstinenece only programs do not work. people will have sex anyway. the saddest part is that now those who do (im talkign teenagers here) won’t know hopw to have safe sex. all they wills ee are horrifyng pictures of STD’s and thats it. emotinal manipulation. similar to what abortion pictures do. it wont make it go away. long island has the highest AIDS rate in the untied states (so i heard). he calls women who for oen reas or anothe rhave an abortion murderers. yet he deprives information that could save the lives of many. who is the really murderer now? the man is out of whack. he doenst wnat aboprtions or death yet his actions elad to both. he’s just a mysogynist pig. if he really chose life then he would let aboriton be legal so the woman doesnt die as well. he makesme sick. he can suck my left.
Posted by vicky on Feb 11, 2003 at 3:48 PM I’m just curious—does “abstinence only” apply to the Bushes’ daughters? We already KNOW it doesn’t apply to the young males in the family, as per the accounts in the media of Jebby getting caught, literally, in flagrante delecto in the parking lot of some mall in Florida. What DO Jenna and Barbara use for birth control???? Abstinence or the Secret Service???
Posted by C Aubrey on Feb 11, 2003 at 6:43 PM I just love it when the stinking holier than thow crowd expects the public to follow thier rules but if you’re speaker of the house and fat and stupid, you can pork your mistress while your still married and insist on chstity from the flock of ignorant voter’s kids till they’re married unless they are gay then they can go to hell as far as the zelots from satans hell are concerned.God I hate Kuntservatives and I hope Jenna gets prenant and the media finds out!!!!!!!
Posted by LARRY on Feb 11, 2003 at 6:50 PM Lucid, dead-on article. Thanks for telling the truth! I’m out here in a red state trying my best. Your article gives me hope.
Posted by Eva Knapp on Feb 11, 2003 at 10:55 PM When I lived in Louisiana/Texas in the early 90’s, there was a “moral” Christian coalition of women who wanted to ban the teaching of sex education in the schools, and repeal all textbooks that referenced the reproductive system. Louisiana, at that time, had the highest teenage pregnancy rate in the country. Those who would dictate ignorance over prevention, unprotected sex over contraceptive safe sex, or legal abortion over life-threatening, back-alley abortions need to seriously question their own morality.
Posted by Patty Zahler on Feb 12, 2003 at 2:35 PM http://capwiz.com/fmf1/issues/alert/?alertid=4
Please click on the link to send a letter to your local representatives to urge the U.S. to ratify CEDAW. This is a very important issue that demands attention from Bush or if necessary from the following administration. Keep the pressure on until CEDAW is signed by the U.S.!
Posted by Lindsey Fauss on Feb 12, 2003 at 3:47 PM I only hope women fight to keep their rights before we have to fight to regain them. The “Bible Belt” is not a place to be optimistic about such things though.
Posted by KC on Feb 12, 2003 at 6:33 PM This is so unfair. Abstinence, and self-respect for the female, is crucial to a happy life and true love of a man. Women over the last thirty years have become sluts, thanks to philosophies like the one you propound. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Posted by kk on Feb 13, 2003 at 2:15 PM Thanks for airing the truth! I used to work as an urban firefighter, and most of our work is medical calls. When some of these cultists were picketing and taking names at the abortion clinic, we would see a rise in the number of poor women (usually hispanic) who self aborted using toxic teas etc. Of course they would need to go to the hospital because they were hemoraging. Bush, Cheney and all of the people at their club just have their children go get a little D & C. The real cruelty of all this is the double slam to poor people.
Posted by Brian on Feb 13, 2003 at 5:56 PM IT IS NOT CUTE TO BE A SLUT
Due to the popularity of “Golden Girls” we thought is was cute to be a slut (Blanche). women think it’s “liberated” to sleep around, or be an easy lay. It is not. The superior female leader is chaste and makes a man respect her. Only this respect will bring his love. Then the marriage bond is far more endearing, for he knows his beloved wife didn’t sleep with every Tom, Dick and Harry that comes around. Bush knows that--he is a dignified gentleman who loves his faithful wife. How could he be expected to underwrite programs encouraging/condoning sluts and whoremongers?
BRING BACK DIGNITY AND TRUE LOVE. THE HOWARD STERNS CULTURE IS DISGUSTING AND THAT’S WHY THE MUSLUM WORLD HATES OUR GUTS.
Posted by kk on Feb 14, 2003 at 9:03 AM re: karen the ignorant slut.....this is what we want is the respect of muslems in that we treat women as they would prescribe.....you are invited to live that way,,,there but we should be allowed to decide to keep our kids informed with truth and not your Santa lives ignorance and rediculous just say no approach to sex-ed. You don’t need to return to quakers and witch burning parts of our history to respect the women and our place in society.......ps bush respects his wife because she is so much more intelligent than he and she no genius herself.
Posted by ll on Feb 14, 2003 at 11:19 AM how paradoxically interesting. Post-hippie peace-marchers are usually into “free love” (i.e. promiscuity)--the very reason the Muslum world hates the west.
Posted by kk on Feb 15, 2003 at 6:42 PM I just figured it out,,,,Karen is FAT, NOT TOO PRETTY, and is a 47 y/o baptist virgin wondering why the holy ghost decided not to inpregnate her with the next coming savior...Her God has chosen her to be an old bitter wench destined to envy humans interacting as the creator imagined (except for beings like her) PITY PITY SUCH A PITY PRAY FOR HER ALOT!!!!!
Posted by ll on Feb 15, 2003 at 8:17 PM ha ha ha. New Agers are all alike. while speaking “peace”, war is in their hearts. Dumbed down from liberal public schools, they have filthy mouths, unable to talk intelligently.
Posted by kk on Feb 15, 2003 at 9:55 PM New Agers: Saying they’re all for women and women’s “rights”; they make sadistic sexist comments when she disagrees with them. You’re not for women--you just go along with the herd for social approval.
Posted by kk on Feb 15, 2003 at 9:58 PM karen calling people sluts is not names calling
karen calling people hippies and ‘liberal’ like a curse word is not name calling…
Funny how is is OK for her to be so abusive, but ‘hurt’ when the same tactic is used as rebuttal to her attacks on her assertions of fact of her OPPINIONS. A good example of this new kompassionate khristian konservative movement......KKK-2000+.
If you don’t like to be called names, consider being civil yourself and a little reality and knowledge couldn’t hurt.
Posted by ll on Feb 16, 2003 at 10:41 AM Shame on ll for making speculations about a woman’s looks because she doesn’t agree with your political beliefs! In my eyes this sort of “discussion” is exactly why the American people are not progressing as a culture. Rather than find the issues we agree upon and work from there, we have one side that views anyone who has sex as a slut, and another that views anyone Christian as ignorant and unworthy of rational discussion. When both sides become alienenated over the 10% of things they disagree on and fail to communicate resorting instead to name calling and blame laying...brand new solutions that might be agreeable to both will never be found!
Posted by DMR on Feb 16, 2003 at 11:23 AM Karen, I must say I find it strange that you are eager to tie peace-marchers with promiscuity. Don’t you realize how many Christians are involved in the peace movement because they don’t want to see innocent women and children killed...not because they have some sort of sexual agenda? And as far as the Muslim world hating the West because of sexuality...this doesn’t make a ton of sense to me, because I can see no way in which anyone having sex in America has hurt people in the Muslim world. Isn’t it far more likely that our corporate policies that put profits before everything and encourage Americans to exploit the workers and resources of the world might be more hateful? Isn’t greed one of the seven deadly sins?
Posted by DMR on Feb 16, 2003 at 11:31 AM For the last 2 years I have have felt that the US Government represents only itself and the corporations that fund its machine, this article has been yet another nail in the coffin of American civil rights.
The separation of church and state was a stroke of brilliance that is being slowly erroded way by the Christian right and the political puppets they support. It’s time to remember that this country was founded by radical revolutionaries, not neo-conservative dead again christians.
Thank you for the depressing, yet informative article.
Posted by Kevin Backmann on Feb 16, 2003 at 12:53 PM Our dear president knows that: you’re either a dignified human with
self-respect and creative power; or you’re a drunkard, slut, whoremonger,
sluggard and a fool. So WHY would he in ALL his wisdom encourage the herd’s
filthy sins by aproving condoms and God-forbid abortions?America needs to repent and grow up so the rest of the world can AGAIN
respect her and thus we’ll have that hedge of protection. When we were
moral decades back, the whole world loved us. Now Howard Sterns and the
Osbornes rule, they hate our guts. Attention all sluts--detach these ruts.
Self-disgust makes you a klutz. It makes men hate you and treat you like
muts!karen
Posted by kk on Feb 16, 2003 at 1:44 PM “Our dear president knows that: you’re either a dignified human with
self-respect and creative power; or you’re a drunkard, slut, whoremonger,
sluggard and a fool.”So when his son gets caught having sex in a parking lot, does that make him a whoremonger? When his daughters get caught drinking underage, does that make them drunks? Should he disown them? Have them face the punishments any other American would receive from the law? To see things as only black and white is only to fool yourself. None of us are perfect...that is what makes us human. And doesn’t the bible say, “judge not, lest you be judged?” The people I respect (Christians and non-Christians alike) are those who rather than condemn those they do not agree with, are those who open their eyes and see the bad and good in everyone, and work from there to make the world a better place.
“America needs to repent and grow up so the rest of the world can AGAIN respect her and thus we’ll have that hedge of protection. When we were moral decades back, the whole world loved us.”
When were we perfectly moral? When we had slaves? When the Klan was free to lynch innocent people and could expect no justice? When we let men beat their wives and gave the poor women no recourse? When rapists were almost never tried because the word of a “respected” man was always stronger than any woman? There never was a perfect America. It has always been a work in progress. Want a more moral country? How about focusing on corporations who shamelessly let Greed be their sin of choice while they exploit workers and encourage apathy and greed in consumers/citizens?
Posted by DMR on Feb 16, 2003 at 2:36 PM To Karen: Sorry Karen, I just don’t see where Ms. Douglas recommends sluttishness. She merely argues--and very sensibly--that women ought to have access to safe birth-control, and that our children ought to receive instruction about human sexuality. Could it be that you are reading a little of your own experience into the article?
Posted by Charles M. Ashley on Feb 16, 2003 at 6:26 PM Just because a male is for abortion doesn’t mean he’s for the “rights of women”. He’s often the biggest sexist--he just wants abortion rights so he can have his pleasures without any responsibility for what he does. I’ve met so many so-called “feminist” men who are total ageist-sexist pigs playing “politically correct” to get social approval (and esp. to avoid disappoval.) It is all spin-hogwash.
Posted by karen on Feb 17, 2003 at 9:42 AM THE WOMEN’S MOVEMENT
At it’s inception, the movement was AGAINST abortion--since the female bears children. These original feminists knew why men would want abortion--so they were against it.
But, the modern feminist has ALLOWED the male view and political correctitude to invade it’s domain. It’s insane. Men always get their way,. as women sway (remain inane).
She who has an abortion never gets over it, the mourning gets worse with age, she’s in a continuous rage, and the marriage/rel goes on the rocks--says the sage.
karen
Posted by karen on Feb 17, 2003 at 9:50 AM I would never, ever call anyone a slut or a drunkard. I am talking about sluts and drunkards in general. If the shoe fits, where it. Idiot.
Posted by karen on Feb 17, 2003 at 10:42 AM Unfair about posthippie peacemarkers? I’ve never met a leftist yet who was chaste--they call it “free love”, a so-called dove.
Posted by karen on Feb 17, 2003 at 12:16 PM poor karen dumb-slut;
nothing better to do than type away her time on her keyboard eating all she can and feeling important because she thinks she is getting a reaction........your vibrator is set on too high and it is affecting your ability to use your bible to thrash the evil-doers of your mind. STUPID IGNORANT COW… GET A FUCKING LIFE!!!
Posted by ll on Feb 17, 2003 at 2:06 PM No one has the right to play God--deciding who lives and who dies. A woman doesn’t have the right to kill her baby in her womb. 42 million babies--an entire generation--has been aborted. Just think---one of them could have been a great scientist or statesmen destined to change the world. Man’s evil always falls on the weakest link--the baby’s very dependency destines it for death in this sick and selfish generation. Men who want to kill their inconvenient children are the American Taliban, not Bush.
Posted by karen on Feb 17, 2003 at 5:04 PM REPENT, AND BE YE SEPARATE
Because we’re in a war, the most important thing is a clarion call for REPENTANCE. A sinful nation ends in ruin, as it’s hedge of protection is removed.
Sluts, sluggards, drunkards, whoremongers and fools! REPENT YE! And then, obey those in authority, saith the Lord.
Repentance brings back prosperity, protection and joy. Continuance in sin brings ruin, desolation and poverty.kk
Posted by karen on Feb 18, 2003 at 5:23 PM I agree with Karen. People in this era don’t even know what sin is, so it must be spelled out
for them. Dumbed down they see right as wrong and wrong as right. They
call good bad, and bad good! Education is run by fools, feminists and
faggots--so FAST: repent, or we’ll come last.
Posted by maria on Feb 19, 2003 at 6:46 AM Capitol punishment for premeditated murder: is not playing God. To NOT do so is to go AGAINST God, who laid down this law. Capitol punishment is the only deterrent. This is why there is so LITTLE crime in the middle east, and why WE have to build new prisons every day. We’re a nation of spoiled brats spawned by parents who read Spock (laxitude--give them their “freedom") or who are afraid of imprisonment for disciplining their brats---which is one reason why most American homes are in chaos. The other reason is the woman thinks she’s above housework so the home looks like a bomb hit it. Women should stay home where they belong and clean house for once! Then, their husbands will respect and love them and their children will sense ORDER and be happy.
Posted by karen on Feb 19, 2003 at 7:05 AM Right on, Karen! I can hardly stand to walk into most homes today! No wonder men leave their wives--with a sink filled with dirty dishes. It is totally disgusting. This country needs order and discipline--and the women belong in the home cleaning. But then their husbands would lose control of two incomes.....hmmmmmm
Posted by maria on Feb 19, 2003 at 7:10 AM I just figured out Karen from her website. She’s not fat--she’s a faster who has declared war on fat
Posted by robert silverstein on Feb 19, 2003 at 7:36 AM The 1950’s was the last glimpse we ever had of goodness, morality, family love, happiness, championship, orderly neat clean homes and joyful family life. Ever since; it’s been sin, stench and dysfunction. I don’t even think women know how to clean house anymore--their hippie peacemarching moms never taught them. Women DEMAND respect, because they can no longer COMMAND it.D
Posted by karen on Feb 21, 2003 at 11:21 AM The Bible does not condone capital punishment. There is killing in it, but it is a text rich in fable and myth which is meant to be used to engender thought, not blind worship. I believe “thou shall not kill” is repeated many a time in aforesaid text.
Another document pertinent to this discussion is the Bill of Rights, which states that Congress shall pass no respecting the establishment of religion, in other words, setting separation of church and state as the first item on the new nation’s list. Regardless of our personal religious persuasion, we must recognize that this country is huge and diverse, and that our opinions about gender roles or expectations, be they based in organized religion or no, are not homogenous. We have no legal recourse for institutionalizing gender roles with respect to religion. What we have is the potential for very opinionated postscripts to the law, ie the anti-abortion measures the above article details.
Unfortunately, our president appeals to, among others, those who look upom 1950’s America through the haze of nostalgia, even those who did not live through this time at all. What survives of that decade, besides the Donna Reid show, is a legacy of a soaring teen pregnancy rate (much higher than today’s) and a large number of abortion-related deaths. We must learn from those mistakes.
One of the great challenges of American life has always been that of accepting-- not necessarily embracing-- our inherent diversity of opinion and background. It is most adolescent to abandon this challenge in pursuit of institutionalized conduct at every level.
Education is key to this process, because without it, all we have is our ignorance.
Posted by lil on Feb 21, 2003 at 11:48 AM I am constantly amazed at the anti-christian rhetoric of the media. This story made me so proud. Not proud of the poor soul who wrote it but of my president. He is more for women’s rights than anyone who would condone abortions. The “right to choose” is not pro women. It is pro-evil. It is not MY body to do with what I want. It is an innocent child. The worst act of murder I could imagine, killing my own defenseless child! I applaud my president. It is far better to be to the right than to the wrong!
Posted by Gina on Feb 22, 2003 at 12:58 PM now do you people see what voting for nader has done?please,i beg of you,just vote democrat in the next presidential election.we can all vote green/independant/third parties in our local elections,but i can’t deal with 4 more years of gee dubya
Posted by kim jong on Feb 23, 2003 at 4:02 AM you know, Karen, i have know idea what you’re doing at this websight.
if i were you, i’d just gently logg off, and go pray for forgiveness for socializing with us sluts.Love,
The lesbian, atheist, anti-christ, satanist, listener of Maralyn Manson, FEMALE, RIDDLED WITH ORRIGIONAL SIN!(did i mention i’m half Jewish and half Catholic?)
Posted by annon the first on Feb 24, 2003 at 1:09 PM Writer Susan Douglas in her piece the Real American Taliban derides the influence of Christianity on the welfare of women. I suppose she regrets the ending of footbinding in China, the end of suttee in India, the establishment of women’s property rights in the West, the end of the abandonment of the elderly female indigenious Americans, the rescue of thousands of women from the sexual slavery in Southeast Asia, or the resuce of thousands of women from slavery in the Sudan. All of these things and more were brought about by the introduction of Christianity into the culture. The one place in the world where Christianity is most absent, the muslim middle east, is the place of greatest oppression of women. President Bush seeks to elevate women in Afghanistan. That does not include making promiscuity that much easier. The promiscuity brought about by readily employed birth control has given America the awful skank-like examples of Christian Aquillera, Courtney Love, and Maddonna to name a few. President Bush has shown wisdom in not foisting upon Afghanistan a similar opportunity at cultural self-destruction particularly given the lack of any long term Christian influence upon the oppressive minded men of Afghanistan.
Posted by Carl Snodgrass on Feb 24, 2003 at 2:16 PM Please don’t speak for the rest of us. We’re not all sleeze like you, and I enjoyed what she had to say. This mag’s for progressive thinkers open to all views and I too hope female dignity comes back.
Posted by Robert Silverstein on Feb 24, 2003 at 2:22 PM Excuse me Carl, I wasn’t referring to you, but to the comment of “Annon the first”, the slut. I enjoyed what you had to say--I’m coming into Christianity as a result of you and Karen.
Posted by Robert Silverstein on Feb 24, 2003 at 2:26 PM Lil needs to do a little more reading of the Bible.
She says, “The Bible does not condone capital punishment. There is killing in it, but it is a text rich in fable and myth which is meant to be used to engender thought, not blind worship. I believe ‘thou shall not kill’ is repeated many a time in aforesaid text.”
The closer translation of that commandment is thou shall not murder. However, the Bible is replete in the old testament and new of God’s endorsement of capital punishment. Lil, you might want to consider that the ultimate capital punishment, those cast into the lake of fire, is described in Revelations.
Jesus himself speaks of capital punishment on multiple occasions. He usually used the phrase, “They will be cast into outer darkness, and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Warning of the government employment of capital punishment is also given to Christians by Paul, “The government does not hold the sword in vain,” (This also is one of many instances of God’s endorsement of the occasion of war.)
The Bible is not a book to be taken in pieces, but in totality, as we should take Christ, for “In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God ... and the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:1, 1:14)Christ and the word are one, rejection of one (even partial) is rejection of the other. Such a path is one of death.
Posted by Carl Snodgrass on Feb 24, 2003 at 2:41 PM Robert - Glad to hear you are moving to Christ (see Romans 10:9-10). I’m posting here today for the first time, so I’m unaware of how you feel you may have offended me, but I am surely not offended. Take care and thank Karen for her much more lengthy dedication to this site than me—Carl :-)!
Posted by Carl Snodgrass on Feb 24, 2003 at 2:46 PM Thank you Carl, for renewing my faith in human nature. So many liberals think we should kill innocent little babies who have hurt no one; yet keep alive monstrous killers who are a danger to society which is better off without them. These mixed-up liberals call themselves “peaceful”!
And thank you Robert, for pointing out that THESE TIMES is not just for sluts but for nice people too.
Posted by karen on Feb 24, 2003 at 3:09 PM Yes Jesus believed in capital punishment. Especially for crimes done to
children. In Mark 9:42 he says “And whosoever shall offend one of these
little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were
hanged about his neck, and he
were cast into the sea.” --This person’s not coming up for air!! And the
Old testament even commands capital punishment for murder: Numbers 35:16
“...he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death.” In fact, Numbers
35:16 to 18, 21, 30 and, 31 all describe reasons why someone should be put
to death.
Posted by Peter on Feb 24, 2003 at 7:41 PM “Separation of church and state” in the bill of rights had nothing to do with denial of religion. It was originally conceived to protect the CHURCH against the STATE. This country began as CHRISTIAN-ONLY. So long as we were Christian, the whole world loved us. But now that we’re pagan and Christianity is outlawed, most of the world hates us. And who can blame them for feeling disgust at the Great White Satan?
Posted by KK on Feb 24, 2003 at 7:56 PM I am a female Christian! One thing that I have to say in response to what I have read in the comments is, first, as far as the death penalty in compared to the Bible...When Christ speaks of death, he is not speaking of physical death. He is speaking of a spiritual death.
Christ himself died on the cross, sacrificed himself, in order to save us from our sins. All we have to do is believe in Him! If you actually read the Bible yourself and gain a thorough understanding of what Christ is saying, then you will know this too. Christ also speaks of “eating of the fruit of the vine”. Does that mean we should all go out and eat grapes! No, what Christ is saying is that we should “eat of Him”. “eat of His Body and drink His blood”. We are to remember Him in all that we do and do as He would. Christ’s Word is our spiritual food! Where is His Word located? In the Bible!Now the part everyone gets really mixed up...The Lord created man...He created man with brains to think...Our brains are a gift from God!...We should use them...In science and in everything that we do!…
The point is at the fall of Adam...God gave man “choice”! Choice to “choose” what we will do here on earth, to decide, each for ourselves, what is right or wrong.
I completely agree that women’s rights are being violated here and that could be extremely dangerous to many women. God gave ME a brain...if “I choose” NOT to have an abortion or take birth control pills or have sex before I am married, I will live with whatever outcome that brings…
If “I choose” TO have an abortion or take birth control pills or even take a prescribed medicine or treatment, that is my right that God has given to ME!
“I” will face MY OWN judgement when that time comes! But those who force their beliefs onto someone else and do their best to take away someone elses right “to choose” will also face their judgement!
So each day, I “eat of Christ’s Body” and “drink of Christ’s blood” and everyday I use “my brain” that God gave me and do whatever I can to do good in this world. As far as me commenting on this post today...I don’t normally post to things like this, but I felt there was a misunderstanding of what the Bible really says and I felt there was a need. I also, feel that MY rights to “choose” between “good and evil” are threatened!
Posted by deb on Feb 26, 2003 at 4:02 PM I wanted to add one more thing, after re-reviewing the posts…
If you read the whole Bible, you will see that when Christ died on the cross, he did this so that people, {such as from the old testament} did not have to make sacrifices to God any more. The Greatest Sacrificial Lamb was Christ and through Him we shall be saved! Not by the way of man!
a quote from below stated, “Yes Jesus believed in capital punishment. Especially for crimes done to children. In Mark 9:42 he says “And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.”
another quote: “Jesus himself speaks of capital punishment on multiple occasions. He usually used the phrase, “They will be cast into outer darkness, and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
then we have, “thou shalt not kill!”
The Lord did not say, if someone kills someone, “other men have the right to kill that man”. He did say, “thou shalt not kill”. Also you must remember, WE ALL are Gods children. He also said it would be better for man that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. Key words here are “better for man”, and “cast into the sea”, means cast into the depths of hell. NOT another man kill someone who has murdered”.
If we murder, the Bible speaks of....after our earthly life, We would die a spiritual death afterward, we would face the weeping and gnashing of teeth and not be able to “live”.
So to me the death penalty is murder. It is death to man by another man. Also to me, abortion is murder, it is death to man by another man…
I also want to add that if God wants someone to birth a child, IT WILL happen, no matter what any man does or wants to do to stop it!
To me, I do not believe that any MAN has a right to place a judgement such as death to anyone.
One question that you should think about....While Christ was on earth, How many people did He physically kill?
BUT...Those are “MY” beliefs and I do not believe that I should force them on anyone else. I do however believe I can teach the Word of the Lord to anyone who WANTS to listen.
I do believe “I have the right to choose” between good and evil. And so does every one else and we all will face judgement based on our decisions. Yours personally and Mine personally, not the US Government or anyone else choosing for us!
Posted by deb on Feb 26, 2003 at 4:48 PM That’s fine in a non-Christian society, which we are. You fit right in, and by your compromise you shall surely gain social approval. But to be a friend of the world--which you are by your laissez-faire impartiality either way--is enmity with God. If society doesn’t show the right way--as God has laid out--that society will be destroyed, as evinced throughout the bible. All such societies compromised with paganism. When people were throwing their babies into the fire to please the God Maal, would you have said “well I may not agree with this personally, but I cannot judge it and won’t force my beliefs on them”? Come on--state the truth and take a chance on social disapproval---so you will then get the approval of God.
Posted by karen on Feb 26, 2003 at 5:13 PM And concerning Man’s free agency--freedom to choose, that is correct. But by you condoning “free choice” you’re going along with a society which has killed 42 million little babies--what makes you different from the everyday feminist?
Posted by kk on Feb 26, 2003 at 5:18 PM And concerning Man’s free agency--freedom to choose, that is correct. But by you condoning “free choice” you’re going along with a society which has killed 42 million little babies--what makes you different from the everyday feminist?
Posted by kk on Feb 26, 2003 at 5:18 PM That “Christian” lady wants to play both fields and sit on the fence. But then Jesus did say “many will come in my name......they are wolves in sheeps clothing”. So what if man has the “free choice” to murder someone--does that mean society shouldn’t punish the murderer? She’s a “New Age Christian"---contradictory.
Posted by bob silverstein on Feb 26, 2003 at 5:53 PM I had to split this into 2 posts, it wouldn’t fit…
Karen,
Karen wrote:
“When people were throwing their babies into the fire to please the God Maal, would you have said “well I may not agree with this personally, but I cannot judge it and won’t force my beliefs on them”? Come on--state the truth and take a chance on social disapproval---so you will then get the approval of God.”My answer to your question on this is if I were standing there watching anyone, not only babies get thrown into the fire, I, personally would do anything I could to try and stop it.
What would you do?
If you are relating this example to abortion rights, my belief is this....I do not feel the unborn babies are being thrown into the fire, I believe they will live on to be with Christ and they are being murdered. I also know that the Lord forgives anyone who asks for His forgiveness, so if they would even face judgement, who knows? That is between the Lord and that person.
People who are faced with a decision to have an abortion have many different reasons to do so. Some are because their life is in danger, some people are teens, some were raped, there are sooo many reasons. We do not have the right to step into someones life, as a stranger, and tell someone what they should do. The Government does not have the right to make decisions that would limit a woman’s free choice on this matter. That is between the person and the Lord. God has a plan for all of us. The person who is pregnant has a right to use the gift of “free choice” that was given to her.
And concerning Man’s free agency--freedom to choose, that is correct. But by you condoning “free choice” you’re going along with a society which has killed 42 million little babies--what makes you different from the everyday feminist?
I have a question for you on this...How could you say, “freedom to choose, that is correct” and then say “if I condone free choice”, that I am going along with a society that killed 42 million babies. I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say here.
Posted by Deb on Feb 26, 2003 at 8:26 PM But like I said in my other post, I, personally don’t believe in abortion for me. I do however feel it is each persons right to choose between good and evil. I also, feel it is up to each individual person to choose what is best for their own personal health on this issue, based on they believe and have learned. We were given brains and free choice to use, and we should be able to use them.
Many rights of the citizen are slowly being violated by the “activistic society”. Everyone feels their way is the better way. There is only 1 way....the way of the Lord!
Have you ever been to a meeting of more than 2 or 3 people. It is very rare that everyone would agree on everything, when it is time for decisions and planning. We are all unique special individuals, created by the Lord to be that way. We live in a democratic society, where we vote on issues and majority rules, and laws are enacted. BUT are the laws always in the way of the Lord? NO, I don’t believe they ever were, since the begining of time. So what do we do about it?
We can stop trying to tell everyone else what we think is best for them and stop being greedy for money, and things that are bigger and better. We can spend more time with our families and teach our children who the Lord is and the difference between right and wrong and good and evil, and most important...to Love Thy Neighbor.
I never thought of myself as a feminist, but if what I am saying is considered to be that....than so be it, if that is what people want to think. I am an average housewife, I could actually be your next door neighbor!
Bob - Did Christ not walk among sinners, thieves, and murderers?
If you would like to call me a “new age Christian” that’s ok. I personally don’t immediately belong to any man made church. I have read the King James Version of the Bible. I have been baptized first, catholic, then baptist, then mormon, throughout my life searching for the truth. I attend different churches on different occasions. I have attended luthren, methodist, presbitarian, and non-demoniational. I have studied some of the Jewish religion also. I also have read parts of the Koran and have studied some ancient history. I belong to the church of the Lord. I am HIS servant!
Posted by Deb on Feb 26, 2003 at 8:27 PM deb wrote: “The Lord did not say, if someone kills someone, other men have the right to kill that man.” And she is right, He never said that. But she is wrong if she thinks the Bible agrees with that sentiment because: Gen. 9:6 “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed.”
If you want to know where the Bible stands on capital punishment I suggest you go here: http://www.str.org/free/studies/capipuni.htm
Posted by Peter on Feb 26, 2003 at 10:15 PM “They will be cast into outer darkness, and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” --This has nothing to do with capital punishment!!!!! It’s from Matthew 22 and is called: the parable of the wedding banquet. It’s about when Jesus returns to earth to set up His Kingdom for a 1000 years. Will you be ready?
Posted by Peter on Feb 26, 2003 at 11:47 PM Deb is a sitting on the fence compromising New Age Christian. The world is full of them and that’s why the Christian church is sliding into mediocrity, allowing gay preachers etc. Christians are told to expect tribulation in this world and some out of fear will do anything to avoid it by balancing factions so everyone “likes” them. Bev, you want the approval of man but what does God think? The Christian must be strong to stand against the masses--though ten thousand be against him, with God that one man is a majority. You are a “mamby-pamby”, mealy-mouthed handshaking poll-itician--going along with the majority no matter how debauched and debased. I meet your type everyday.
Posted by Blake Conley on Feb 27, 2003 at 5:49 AM A lady’s incensed about the word “slut”. Oh didn’t I remember to tell you--both men and women are sluts? Most men are sluts but because it’s socially approved for males, they don’t see themselves that way. When male sluts repent, they become the greatest saints--because they were always seeking the unconditional love of God and now they have it.
Posted by karen on Feb 27, 2003 at 8:33 AM There are no “pro-choice Christians”. It is a contradiction in terms. The carnal Christian is just a member of a club--but hasn’t had a heart-change ( still deranged). Her heart’s made of stone, a tiresome clone.
Posted by karen on Feb 28, 2003 at 2:03 PM Dear Susan,
I admire anyone who speaks up, there’s just too litlle of it today. Unfortunately the people reading and accepting your word are people that are already in agreement with you. I know from personal experience that the “righties” want proof when I speak up against their dictator. Could we have the sources for those millions in diverted funds ? Keep it up !
Posted by David Reinhart on Mar 4, 2003 at 12:43 AM this is the most stupid thing that I have read in a long time. I mean are you serious? The reason that sexually transmitted diseases have soared have nothing to do with Bush policies. It is the parents responsibility to teach their children not the schools!!! Blame the parents. I am a mother of five and have made sacrifices so that I can raise my children the proper way. President Bush is the best man for the job that lies ahead.
Posted by maria on Mar 6, 2003 at 3:01 PM Karen, your comments make me sad. Your lack of insight, understanding, or empathy make the word humane a thin sick joke. Unforgivable. Please keep your hate to yourself. You are committing a public disservice.
Posted by disappointed on Mar 9, 2003 at 12:55 AM There are some scary and confused people on these forums… First of all, I support equality for women and I don’t particularly like the tactics of the Bush administration. That much said, this Susan Douglas chick is warped, all she can write about is “oppressed woman” issues, and she doesn’t write accurately about that subject…
Don’t quote the frickin Bible to those of us smart enough not to blindly follow along. It’s a book, written by uneducated men long ago, as a means to explain things they didn’t understand. That’s all. I’m sure there are some things in the Bible that are true, but it doesn’t explain all the complex workings of the world. No I don’t blindly follow evolution either, though a combination of outside sources/higher beings in conjunction with millions of years of development is as best we will ever understand… SO SHUT UP ABOUT IT!
I’ve got an idea! Lets get all the liberal Canadians, pansy French, and American feminists to go down to the middle East and Afghanistan with their brilliant ideas and solve all these problems… We will leave all US military personnel out of it, and no, we won’t use any weapons, that wouldn’t be peaceful. Good luck, you confused souls.
I’m willing to bet there are millions of really great people, emotionally, mentally, good hearts and minds, living throughout those countries. But the peaceful approach doesn’t work as often as we would like…
Why do I respond to crap like this?
Posted by ROCKTIME on Mar 11, 2003 at 10:04 AM Why We Should Trust the Gospel Witnesses:
http://www.str.org/free/studies/whyshud.htm
Posted by Peter on Mar 13, 2003 at 8:27 AM Quite a bit of comment from people. It is quite unfortunate that we live in a time where most of the debate is nothing more than calling each other names and pointing fingers. I am a follwer of God and need no one to tell me what is right and what is wrong. For me, abortion is a simple issue. No one can no what it is like to have to make that decision. What factors come into play? How many children are there already? Is it a crime to bring a child into a world of poverty and greed? These are not my choices as I am a man. The decision is a personal one and should be left to the individual. Jesus teaches to not judge(You are doing so by namecalling) and to pray within the confines of our own mind; not to put it on a stage for all to see. In Matthew 12:7 Jesus calls on us to show mercy and not sacrifice. If a woman chooses to have an abortion, then that is her choice and she will deall with it in her own way. As a servant of God, I am called to forgive and comfort her and be her equal. And for Karen, the 50s may have been nice for you, but why don’t you ask a person of color or Native American if they feel the same. Don’t point out the speck in your brother’s eye when you have a plank in yours. Peace to you all.
Posted by Evan Selby on Mar 17, 2003 at 3:52 PM Matthew 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
Posted by Bible thumper on Mar 17, 2003 at 5:56 PM Evan, don’t you think you were pointing a finger at Karen? Your comment seems rather passive aggressive. I mean someone else here used “the 50s” to insult Karen and now you are too, but you prefer to beat-around-the-bush. I know Karen, she has removed any plank she had in her eye, and is well able to point out the plank in yours.
Evan, if you got a women pregnant and she said she wanted an abortion would you just sit back and say “well it’s you choice”? BE A MAN and marry her and be a father to your child. Don’t condemn the innocent! (thanks thumper)
Posted by Peter on Mar 20, 2003 at 6:20 PM Maria,
I have to disagree with you about Bush being the best man ahead for the job.I think McCain would have been far, far better. Even Gore. I believe we wouldn’t even be at war.
In my opinion, Bush is like the person that says, Lord, Lord, and not everyone who says that will get to heaven. What I mean is, I think he has way, way too many financial and political reasons to really care about other countries, let alone his own. I think this was all pre-planned.
War may be a necessary evil, but it’s still evil.
And in this case, I, like many others on this forum, believe it’s unnecessary.
Posted by neil on Apr 8, 2003 at 4:08 AM Evan,
I have mixed feelings about abortion. As a Catholic, my church opposes it; yet, I’m a man. I don’t know what it’s like for a woman to be in that situation and I can’t ever pretend to.But, I was wondering what your views on the death penalty are. I believe killing is killing.
I look at religious people in support of the death penalty and I think it’s the wrong stance to take. WWJD, you know.Just curious,
neil
Posted by neil on Apr 8, 2003 at 4:12 AM What would Jesus do? Jesus would uphold the law.
Read this:
The Bible and Capital Punishment:
www.str.org/free/studies/capipuni.htm
Posted by Peter on Apr 9, 2003 at 6:06 AM Peter,
Completely taken out of context. NO WAY does Jesus condone killing one person for a crime. NO WAY. This goes against humanity, which is from God. NO person has more authority than God. Being subject to local authorities does not mean going to one’s death.
I don’t know what “Christian” religion condones death, but it’s one I don’t to be a part of. Killing is killing. The only way Jesus ever said it was okay was in self-defense.
Posted by neil on Apr 9, 2003 at 10:17 PM In Mark 9:42 Jesus says “And whosoever shall offend one of these
little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were
hanged about his neck, and he
were cast into the sea.” I don’t think this person is coming up for air, do you? Im sorry Neil if it disturbs you but the Bible is clear on capital punishment. Like it or not, God DEMANDS capital punishment for murder. Gen. 9:6 “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed.” Perhaps you can put this in context for me?
Posted by Peter on Apr 10, 2003 at 4:14 AM Luke 22:36-38 defiantly indicates that Jesus approved of self-defense.
Posted by Peter on Apr 10, 2003 at 5:29 PM Peter, yes, self-defense, my church agrees with that--I think every church does.
“Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” Jesus didn’t condemn the woman to death.
I’ve read a lot about this and I still agree with my church’s view. Yes, respecting authority is a Christian duty, BUT, there’s many instances where the early Christians defied the law by practicing their religion, which the Jewish authorities convinced Rome was a threat to order. Had they obeyed the law....
And, this is probably a stretch of an analogy, if the government said you had to put a mark on your foreheard for identification, there’s NO WAY I’d obey that.We’re given a free will, with faith and guidance we can use the good judgement to disobey those laws that are immoral. God will be with us and behind us. That is the meaning of being a martry, after all, well, one of them.
Lott had God talked into sparing Soddom for the sake of 5 people. Still couldn’t find them. Jesus replaced the old testament and it’s harsh ways.
Anyway, sorry to talk to much about it.
I respect your view and peace to ya.
Neil
Posted by neil on Apr 17, 2003 at 3:19 AM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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