The Neocons Lexicon

hmmm, let’s see. The 9/11 terrorists were Islamic, fighting in the name of Islam. Ditto for the Madrid and London bombers.

Fascism - A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

hmmm, Islamofascism - A system of government marked by centralization of authority under an Islamic dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

That the Bush Adminstration would use such a term to describe a war on terror that is self-described as furthering the goals of Islamic fundamentatlism, well, that is just an outrage!

Al Qaeda is a non-state entity. Thus, according to Jay’s definition, it would not count as Islamofascist, since this requires a “system of government.”

The problem with the term is not only that it is based on a misleading historical analogy (since fascism was a historical phenomenon of the early to mid-twentieth century), but also that it obscures the complexity of the Middle East. If the US has done anything in Iraq, it has likely sparked a lengthy and bloody conflict between Sunnis and Shiites for regional dominance. But by dividing the world into Manichean categories, the discourse of Islamofascism prevents actual understanding of the region.

Well, maybe according to Howie’s interpretation of Jay’s definition. Yet even a Board of Governors of a non-profit organization is a “system of government”, so the point is moot.

Also, I was unaware that anywhere in a definition of fascism (or in any other -ism) there exists an implicit understanding that the term is temporally dependent.

What Constant of the Universe has changed that makes fascism impossible in today’s world?

I would suggest to Jay that he perhaps peruse Robert Paxton’s recent book on Fascism, Stanley Payne’s History of Fascism, and Ian Kershaw’s work on Fascism to see that there is NO generally accepted definition of classical systems of fascism. Indeed, there are scholarly debates concerning whether such a general and universal definition of fascism is possible or whether there can only be a nominal definition based upon family resemblances between regimes. Furthermore, due to the wide diversity of positions and ideologies (not to mention attitudes towards the acquition of state-power and the modern nation-state) within what is here, in the US, called “political Islamism” (the Muslim Brotherhood, al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Khomenism,Wahabism, etc.), it might be thought that the use of the term “Islamofascism” is really a very slippery, nearly useless, concept. Useful in rhetorical terms, perhaps, but for analytic purposes, entirely useless.

After reading these books, I would then suggest reading Orwell’s essay “Politics and the English Language”.

It was bad analysis on the part of radicals in the 60’s to indiscriminately call every institution or individual “fascist”, it is equally bad on the part of neoconservatives now. And really, it is time to start seeing that all political action cannot be reduced to analogy with Munich 1938. Neoconservatives really need to read more history.

I would suggest to Orwell that he attempt to explain, in his own words, why the aforementioned definition is not valid.

I hate quotations. Tell me what you know. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Is fascism,

? A system of government,

marked by

?centralization of authority under a dictator,
?stringent socioeconomic controls,
?suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship,
?and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

To which do you disagree with? to which is not an accurate reflection of both the Axis Powers of WWII and the current regimes of terror under the auspices of Islam?

First off, I assume Jay is being ironic when he uses a quotation to criticize the use of quotations.

It would require a long essay, if not a book, to go into the complexities of the differences between fascist regimes (Indeed, this is why I suggested looking at Stanley Payne’s book, considered the best general and comparative history). To take an example, the Nazi party in Germany set up dual-power structures, mimicing the structure of the state (ministries, etc.) basically conflating the Nazi party with the state upon assuming power (a process that began electorally, but was then consummated with Hitler’s assumption of emergency powers following the burning of the Reichstag). Mussolini and the fascist party in Italy, on the other hand, did not establish such dual-power structures and their was a greater autonomy of the apparatuses of the state from the party. This is of course a schematic and incomplete comparison. Paxton also delves into these issues, if I recall correctly.

My general point, however, is that delving and exploring the details of history makes the automatic application of historical analogy more difficult and exacting (although not impossible). The casual use of the term “Islamofascist” is neither.

Indeed, I believe that the use of the term and “analysis” provided by “Islamofascism” by the right is similar (but of course not exactly, history, as I stated above, not being simple) to the Third International’s analysis of German Social Democracy as itself being (if I recall correctly), “Social Fascism”. The lack of nuance by the Third International led the KPD to a disastrous strategy whereby they continued to attack the Social Democrats while leaving the NSDAP relatively unopposed. 

The term “Islamofascist” performs a similar function by conflating all Islamist into a single (unthought) category.

Your assumption would, of course, be correct.

With regard to the differences between examples of fascism, that is not the point. It is not, what kind of fascism is Islamofascism, but whether it is a form of fascism.

If there is any conflating ALL Islamists as fascists, it is Orwell’s doing. There is nothing intrinsic in the use of Islamofascists that categorizes the current regimes of terror under the auspices of Islam as a superset of all Islamists; rather the term refers only to those Islamists that are currently employing regimes of terror as fascists.

Orwell’s argument is akin to claiming that calling David Duke a white supremacist conflates all whites as supremacists.

Again,

Is fascism,

? A system of government,

marked by

?centralization of authority under a dictator,
?stringent socioeconomic controls,
?suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship,
?and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

To which do you disagree with? to which is not an accurate reflection of both the Axis Powers of WWII and the current regimes of terror under the auspices of Islam?

Maybe its just the the banal semantic quibbling, the presentation of extreme moronism in logical form, and the apparent obfuscatory defence of a repulsive political position, but does anyone smell anything funny here?

staedlerjr,

You’d have to be more specific.

Which quibbling, Salim Muwakkil’s or Orwell’s?

I think an important point is being missed here. And that is the problem of continuing to allow delusional republicans to define the world as they see it - or more importantly how they want others to see it.
“Islamic fundamentalists are fascists (not us)”
“Those who question our wars and wasteful spending are unpatriotic (not us)”
“Bill Clinton let Osama Bin Laden go (not us)”
and so on and so on..

This definition of “fascism” pretty closely describes the Neo-con republican plan for “governing”:
“a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.”

That should be obvious.

drphonic,

It is good to see you have done your homework. I shall be sure to let the people at www.dictionary.com that you believe them to be “delusional Neo-con Republicans.”

I would ask you the same unanswered question I have asked Orwell, what specifically to you object to with the definition? Beyond the “obvious”, of course.

oh, here is the URL for this “deluded” definition.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fascism

Maybe the real issue is that some people are in denial? If the sky is blue but you hate the color blue, then anyone claiming the sky to be blue must be delusional.

I must see if I can locate an appropriate reference describing the notion, theory before facts.

drphonic,

Ah, I see the point you so laboriously belabor: you indeed accept the definition and take it one step further and apply it to American politics. Well, I would certainly agree that any fundamentalist point of view has elements of fascism embedded within.

So, would it be fair to say that it is not a terrible strain of your obvious credulity to understand that you accept the phrase Islamofascism as an accurate portrayal of what is going on within Islamic fundamentalism?

Welcome the right side of American politics.

OK.

First, what system of government? Name me one system in which an “Islamofascist” is currently in power?  One could argue that there are authoritarian populist in power in many mideastern countries, but this does not make them fascist. Indeed, according to your definition, Chile, Brazil, Guatemala during the civil war period, and many other post-war regimes would qualify as “fascist”. Your definition places cases that are not fascist regimes under itself.

Two, what “Islamofascist” is advocating stringent economic controls? Did you find this in the writings of Qutb? Khomeni? Who? What types of Islamic thought qualify as Islamofascism? Your definition does not specify and therefore is a useless definition. A definition aims for clearness and distinctness.

I hate to quote for you from the Dictionary.com definition of definition:

def‧i‧ni‧tion  /ˌdɛfəˈnɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[def-uh-nish-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.the act of defining or making definite, distinct, or clear.
2.the formal statement of the meaning or significance of a word, phrase, etc.
3.the condition of being definite, distinct, or clearly outlined.

Indeed, your definition of fascism makes no reference to Islam at all. What indeed is the use of appending “Islamo-” to the word. Why not just call them fascist.

Third, fascist regimes tended to be anti-clerical and secular. While Mussolini and Hitler made concessions to the church while in power, they tended both in rhetoric and policy to be athiestic or pagan.  Clearly, political Islam is not secular in orientation, although they oppose many of the established, religious Islamic authorities.

Fourth, fascist regimes were Nationalist and directly tied to the development of the nation-state, the vehicle off of which they built their imperial ambitions.  Most currents of political Islam oppose the modern, western nation-state, the political form adopted by post-colonial regimes during the era of national liberation. Qutb and bin Laden, for instance, talk about the establishment of the new caliphate and the Umma, transnational entities if there ever were any. The rhetoric of al-Qaeda (a decentralized, non-state entity, with no clear command and control structure, I add) is explicitly anti-national. Furthermore, while clearly partial to Islam (and their specific type of Islam in particular), they are not using a “scientific”, social darwinistic, concept of race which was the basis of Nazi eugenics and genocide.

Furthermore, many movements of political Islam in the mideast ARE the opposition in many countries in the mideast. and are being persucuted by secular, nationalist regimes.  It is no accidnet that Qutb wrote his famous book while in prison under a secular and nationalist regime in Eygpt and due to political repression of the Muslim Brotherhood. Or for that matter, that Saddam Hussein’s secular regime (probably the closest example to a fascist dictatorship in the mideast) persecuted advocates of political Islam.

May I suggest that the term “authoritarian populist” or “theocratic” might be bettern terms to use, depending upon the case?

Orwell,

Fair questions. I will attempt to respond.

what system of government? Name me one system in which an “Islamofascist” is currently in power? One could argue that there are authoritarian populist in power in many mideastern countries, but this does not make them fascist.

I have no issues with using an appropriate dictionary to seek accord on definitions.

system: a coordinated body of methods or a scheme or plan of procedure; organizational scheme: a system of government.

government: the political direction and control exercised over the actions of the members, citizens, or inhabitants of communities, societies, and states; direction of the affairs of a state, community, etc.; political administration

In a word, al Qaeda, among others. It is a coordinated body with an organizational scheme to offer (among other goals) political direction and control to exercise over the actions of the members of their community, society, and any state that they can influence and/or control.

I agree that the definition of fascism is not perfect, or even complete. If we wait for perfection of definitions, we will be waiting until the Second Coming of Christ, regardless of one’s religious beliefs. The lack of guidance to differentiate between authoritarian regimes, such as Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iraq under Saddam, and fascist regimes (Iran?) is stark. Yet the definition is certainly sufficient to start an examination.

Fascist regimes are not only characterized by a supremacy of singular order, but of a single belief structure that gives the characteristics listed in the original definition. Autocratic regimes would be merely “king-of-the-hill” regimes. Populist regimes would likewise not be necessarily fascist. Majority rule, whether the minority is tolerated or persecuted, would not be a basis for fascism. The organizing belief structure in a fascist society could be based on a fervent, if not religious, belief of mythical racial superiority or, in this case, actual perceptions of religious or moral superiority.

what “Islamofascist” is advocating stringent economic controls?

Let’s try to be clear with definitions, if we are going to go that route. Socioeconomic controls, not strictly economic controls. Islam itself advocates near total state control over peoples lives, their social standing, their everyday activities. How many women are oppressed from fully participating in their society in Iran? How many sanctioned stonings of women, of gays, of infidels? Speaking strictly of economics, ask Salman Rushdie for examples of stringent Islamic economic control. And what of the Islamic head tax, that is required by those members of society who will not convert to Islam, and the consequence of not paying that head tax (you lose your head, literally)?

Now, differing belief structures and values by itself may not connote a fascist regime, everyone has beliefs that are conflicting with other beliefs; but the issue is the excessive and stringent practice and extent of control, economic, social, political, whatever, and an strongly enforced intolerance towards “deviant” behavior.

your definition of fascism makes no reference to Islam at all. What indeed is the use of appending “Islamo-” to the word. Why not just call them fascist.

Of course it doesn’t. That is the rationale for prefixing “Islamo-” to the word; as an adjective of what fascism we are talking about. The topic of discussion is not a Nationalistic fascism, such as Nazism, it is about those Islamists who have adopted a fascist “organizational scheme” in their governance to enforce their world belief.

In the definition of Islamofascism, I do make explicit reference to Islam - centralization of authority under an Islamic dictator.

Third, fascist regimes tended to be anti-clerical and secular.

I fail to see how holding an extreme and intolerant religious worldview, as opposed to a secular one, abrogates a discussion on the clearly fascist characteristics thus described. If two men are convicted of murder, and they both come from the same city, does that mean only men from that city are capable of murder? What is the logical basis you use, other than anecdotal references, that restricts fascist regimes to non-religious societies?

Fourth, fascist regimes were Nationalist and directly tied to the development of the nation-state, the vehicle off of which they built their imperial ambitions.  Most currents of political Islam oppose the modern, western nation-state, the political form adopted by post-colonial regimes during the era of national liberation. Qutb and bin Laden, for instance, talk about the establishment of the new caliphate and the Umma, transnational entities if there ever were any.

Please reread that. Absolutely, a centralized authority is a necessary requirement of fascist societies. The nation-state is certainly the modern exemplar of centralized authority. And a new caliphate is NOT?? That they have not yet fully attained the political and military power to finalize their imperially religious ambitions does not mean they are not fascist. In the Spanish Civil War, were not the opponents of Franco democrats? Yet, they did not, at that or any subsequent point, enjoy the fruits of a democratic society. The envisioned Caliphate is an archtypical example of fascism. That the Umma is transnational is reflective only of a Caliphate that has yet to come into existence. Yet you yourself admit, that is their goal.

Furthermore, many movements of political Islam in the mideast ARE the opposition in many countries in the mideast. and are being persucuted by secular, nationalist regimes.

I don’t recall requiring that fascist regimes of differing worldviews would be at peace with each other. In fact, having a singular worldview, while is comforting to the holder in that he does not have to acknowledge the validity of other worldviews, it almost necessitates exactly that kind of opposition that you describe. Are not the Democrats, democrats? Yet they are in opposition to the controlling party, another group of democrats.

I hope that helps to make the meaning of Islamofascism definite, distinct, and clear.

May I suggest that the term �authoritarian populist� or �theocratic� might be bettern terms to use, depending upon the case?

Perhaps, but without some definitive “definition” to differentiate them from fascism, to what end?

Hey....this is just another attempt by the Bush christological-fascist regime too point the finger at someone else....The term applies to the Bush administration more readily than it does to any general application too Islam....This is a reactionary move on the part of a stupid Mr.Bush...in hopes of stemming the tide of disillusionment among a growing number of his faithful.....To paint this rhetoric as less than disingenuous is being blind to the facts as they exist....It appears that our Mr. Jay Cline is infected with this reactionary germ...and is vainly attempting to spread this contagious misrepresentation of rhetorical nonsense to others on this web-site…

Mr.Cline the definition of fascism ; contexturally with a religious concept such as christianity , judaism or islam is only workable if it is also applied to a recognizable state Gov’t.....Excellent examples are the present administration under the very extremely questionable “ leadership “ of this guy Buckfush , more commonly referred to ass ; President Bush , the Isreali Gov’t also practices this form of fascist rhetoric....in principle and from a reactionary perspective pertaining to their often mentioned....."right too self defense “............

The Bush regime has failed to identify the nation...Iraq may have been fascist in the way Saddam ran the place...but Iraq was not run as a non-secular or rather Islamic state...The Taliban , al Quada . Hezbullah or Hamas do not fit the bill......

because they are not yet recognized state Gov’ts....To have a war on “Terror” or “Islamofascism “ is such a vague definition that the military doesn’t know who is the enemy....

This is exactly what the neo-con Bush war machine wants...a perpetual military engagement...the conflict of which will be continuous for many generations....One would hope Mr.Cline , that you do not have children...for more than likely they are the ones who will pay the lions share of the egregious monetary and human costs for this whole egotistically driven maniacal manipulation ; based on the ideology of a christian nationalist manifesto.....All done under the dim-witted supersitions of a former drunk and cociane head with a below C average at Yale…
Now how did he get into law school with those grades..? Daddy......and the east coast fortune that Ol’ Prescott built...........what a cowboy.......
We still don’t know where he was during the Vietnam war....so now 35 years later he and his other little evil-minded neo-con back-door draft buddies want to get their collective “ dicks “ wet................................true

Wow!  Talk about a �lexicon� :

�Certainly, there are troubling tendencies among the radical Muslims who increasingly see the United States as the enemy.�

“Troubling Tendencies”? Have you ever considered how often the articles on this site excuse the violent reactions of these religious radicals to innocuous situations? Somebody please tell those guys about �sticks and stones.”
“
Troubling tendencies”, hmmm nice alliteration and a workable sound bite, but it hardly brings images of suicide bombers, nun shooters or cartoon-crazies does it?  But then, that is something we should simply avoid by catering to there particular �insult� categories.  Maybe the pope should have gone with “Troubling Tendencies”. Would people still be calling for apologies?

His Holiness cordially invites you to a discussion of the �Troubling Tendencies� which have several people concerned.

How many countries will have to suffer with these �Troubling Tendencies� � rioting, burning, beheading, kidnapping, bombing � before a unifed global resistance is mounted to put an end to it?

Orwell -

First, what system of government? Name me one system in which an “Islamofascist” is currently in power? 

Iran, of course.

… fascist regimes tended to be anti-clerical and secular. While Mussolini and Hitler made concessions to the church while in power, they tended both in rhetoric and policy to be athiestic (sic) or pagan.  Clearly, political Islam is not secular in orientation, although they oppose many of the established, religious Islamic authorities.

Bullshit.  Both the Mullahs in Iran and al-Qa’eda are anti-clerical, secular, and pagan.  Practitioners of headhunting and human sacrifice are not adherents of one of the great monotheistic religions, but of primitive and atavistic superstitions.  Al-Sistani is a cleric, Khamenei is not. 

“Orwell” does not suit you.  Why don’t you call yourself “Fewtile Fergots”?

Both you guys are picking a fight with yourselves....pull the boulder out of your own eye, first....then you can see the trouble you cause your neighbors........

This...”.I’m the good guy...everybody else is bad , bad , bad....."sounds like a bunch of 4th graders…

Talk about Bullshit....look in the mirror.............Scorp ,WTH........

Now , concerning “Paganism”....no religion in the western perspective , as defined by someone like yourselves...Scorp or WTH ; is without the root base of the Pagan cosmology....Take away the pagan influence....you will take away the basic tenants of your respective religions....The pagan superstructure is the foundation of all the so-called major faiths...especially christianity......................period....

.......Seen in the light of Evolution , the existence of evil is no longer a mythological mystery to be made the most of by pious ignoramuses for preaching purposes , but a necessary concomitant of development ; one of the conditions by means of which we grow into consious human beings to attain the higher life............Gerald Massey…

My question to you two scholars of Amerikan Nationalism......Why do you guys insist on pissing on the natural process and conditions set forth by the physics of nature......?

Haven’t had much time to respond. A quick note:

Scorp:

Simply stating “Iran” is not an argument. Please go into the power structure of Iran, the contending parties, the relationship between the supreme leader and Ahmadinejad (one of whom..ahem...happens to be a cleric), the ideologies of the contending parties, etc. Then demonstrate how they are similar or different to other groups of “Islamofascists”. If you want a place to start, may I recommend Nikkie Keddie’s book “Modern Iran: The Roots and Results of the Revolution”?

If al-Q is secular, what then is the use of appending “Islamo-” to the designation?

WHile I find the means of Al-Q to be barbaric, I nonetheless have yet to hear about Al-Q practicing human sacrifice or headhunting.

The burden of proof is upon those who would use and apply the term “Islamofascism”.  My overall point is that fascism is a complex political phenomenon. It is not necessarily unitary and the use of the designation requires both specific empirical evidence and careful analysis. Is the term “Fascism” totally useless? No. But one should not substitute Platonic definition for careful construction of a usable concept and close empirical work to determine it’s applicability to specific societies and movements (and with careful historical specificity). The terms general deployment today more often serves as insult than as careful analysis. It’s use is to deceive the US public through recourse to a politiical theology of good and evil that the use of the term “Islamofascism” facilitates. Rather then enlightening the public, it obscures the fact that there are other options then brute militarism to confront the authoritarian societies and governments of the Middle East (and given the empirical evidence of the use of force in Iraq to bring democracy, we would be wise to consider other options).

I’ll leave this discussion with some links to some articles that I think do a better job than I at explaining the problems with “Islamofascism” (besides Salim’s here):

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060911/pollitt
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060925/pollitt
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5743773

Finally: I do not claim to be the final arbiter of all things Orwell, but nonetheless, find him to be quite instructive concerning the use of language in politics. I do not claim his mantle nor do I always agree with him. Yet, the term “Islamofascism” as it is used in contemporary US politics seems to be an instance of the type of language that Orwell criticized in “Politics and the English Language”.  I’ll leave you with a quote from it:

“The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies “something not desirable.” The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using that word if it were tied down to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different.”

Good day.

Islam at its very core is based on conquest, racism, tyranny and ignorance.  There are no parallels from history to use as a basis for definition. It simply is. The issue is attempting to define a theocracy using political terms. The two are not compatible. Facism does not properly describe the threat Islam presents. I feel it is only a universally understood term that provides the level of caution needed to deal with the Middle East.

What the hell are you talking about texasindependent...no parallels...like the history of this nation...slavery , the use of christianity to controll and also enrage the citizenry.......please…

Islam was create as a religion , in response to the corruption in the christian church...priests trying to screw little boys and shit....is not new to the history of the christian church....
Such an honorable faith , led by such filthy men…
Read a little history..before you start kicking yourself in the ass........

No...major religion Christianity...Islam...or Judaism is immune from this craziness...You , like your nuckle-headed president are wholeheartedly misinformed.....

Again...look yourself in the mirror...first , before you TI “ CAN BEGIN TOO POINT THE FINGER AT OTHER FAITHS “....

One would guess being a redneck from Texas excuses you from your profuse stupidity...............

By the way.....
Did your son or daughter go to church today ?
Is your son an alter-boy...?
Pastor or priest ask them to stay late...help out after services...?
Child walking kind of funny...lately....?
Dump suckers like yourself are a bigger danger to their own children , then Islam or some muslim guy...minding his own business.......
Child molesting priests and clergy are rampant in the christian faith...wake the fuck up...fool.....

First. Learn to spell

Second.  Islam was “created” in 622. In response to idol worship in Saudi Arabia.

Third.  Pedophilia is allowed by the Koran.

Fourth.  “Minding your own business” and strapping on a bomb are two completely different concepts.

Finally where are the Methodist Suicide Bombers?

ghost, er, rabbit, er horse (damn, I get so confused by all the incarnations),

damn, now I forgot what I was going to say.

Try your christian abortionist...dump ass...Tim McViegh......
TI , Redhorse doubts that a cud chemi’n hick like yourself has ever read the Koran...what Pastor Brimestone and a bubble ass tell you that lie on Sunday after screwi’n your wife and daughter....

Show me the Sura that states that fact on pedophilia..........

Those pervert christian preachers don’t need the bible to tell them about your son....they just pull up on it.....ya know...Just like that Dateline sting...all those good christian boys...showing up too screw that imaginary little girl...the pastor that came over the bait house to see a little boy for sex.....

And you...such a good christian that you lie about others...based off of your little ostentatious recidivistic supersitions.......dumb ass…

p.s....spell ? what ...two ll in controll......TI , You need too learn how to think for your-self.........dumb ass...See , I understand...from your limited perspective , all muslims are now suicide bombers , based off of what dumbfush ( that’s George Bush for the redneck challenged ) has told you fools........Redhorse was incorrect...you are not a dumb ass...I do apologize....you are a xenophobic...dumb ass......again , my apologizes................Texas ‘ toon…

Jay...my guess is that your confusion is a natural byproduct of early senility...based on the lack of any real factual information in your vertebrate cranium....in other words...you got an empty head.............fact…

.

It was hard to decipher your rambling jibberish and speaking of yourself in the third person is confusing but.....

The law ordering pedophilia is in chapter 65, entitled �The Divorce� and qualified by Islamic law, which is based on the sunnah, the �perfect example� of Muhammad recorded in the hadiths, traditions. The context deals with the issue of the waiting period for divorce, and remarriage. The Quran orders Muslim men to wait a period of three months for sex in the case of women who either are no longer menstruating or haven�t yet started their menstrual cycles.

وَاللَّائِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ الْمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَائِكُم
1618; إِنِ ارْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُ
1606;َّ ثَلَاثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ وَأُوْلَاتُ الْأَحْمَال
1616; أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ يُسْرًا

(4. Those in menopause among your women, for them the `Iddah, if you have doubt, is three months; AND FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NO MENSTRUATION. And for those who are pregnant, their `Iddah is until they lay down their burden; and whosoever has Taqwa of Allah, He will make his matter easy for him.)

(5. That is the command of Allah, which He has sent down to you; and whosoever has Taqwa [fear] of Allah, He will expiate from him his sins, and will increase his reward.) Qur�an chapter 65:4

Fewtile Orwell -

Simply stating �Iran� is not an argument.

Umm, you did not ask for an argument.

Name me one system in which an �Islamofascist� is currently in power? 

Iran is the correct answer. 

The richest people in Iran are Mullahs associated with the Council of Guardians, the Expediency Council, and the Assembly of Experts.  The controlling devices for these riches are the charities (bonyads) that these people dominate.  These charities control great blocks of the Iranian economy.  Beneficiaries of these charities, besides the Mullahs, include Hizb’allah and the Mahdi Army in Iraq, and the benefits of these charities include rockets, weapons, and subversion of Lebanon and Iraq.  The socialist and militarist aspects of National Socialism (in Germany) are administered by the bonyads in Iran.  Corruption and war making are secular values, not religious values. 

As always in such matters, the people are not beneficiaries.  Iran is very rich in natural resources, but unemployment, inflation, and corruption are rampant, leading to unrest and suppression by the Mullahs’ goons.

WHile I find the means of Al-Q to be barbaric, I nonetheless have yet to hear about Al-Q practicing human sacrifice or headhunting.

That is the most profoundly ignorant statement in recent memory.  Danny Pearl.  The snuff films of al-Zarqawi.  Look them up. 

My overall point is that fascism is a complex political phenomenon. 

Your overall point is hopelessly more confused and complicated than necessary.  The Islamofascists (NOT including most Muslims) will continue to try to kill us and our culture.  At some point, perhaps after another major attack on the scale of 09/11, WE WILL wipe them out, as we wiped out the nazis and the Japanese militarists. 

You will note that we went through a thirteen-year diplomatic process with Iraq and the UN, to zero effect.  We are now several years into a similar effort with Iran, to negative effect.  Either the USA or Israel will take out the Irani nukes.  It is better (fewer dead people) if we do it, and the sooner the better.

Tex I -

Don’t mind Horse.  No one acknowledges him anymore, much less tries to reason with him.  It’s like arguing with a turnip.

Again....you are xenophobically misinformed....you are the one that added the word....” yet “....too misrepresent the verse...furthermore the whole context of the verse is too vague to make that specific assumption....that’s all your supposition....Again , that filthy christian mind....
Fact is we know for sure that all of those christian clergymen are trying too screw your kids...that’s your problem...not mine.....it’s all over the news...cowboy..or is that blue-boy....
Further....all...and I mean all religious doctrines are based in mythology...unless you can unravel the myth...none of this stuff is historically factual.....so why get your panties all bunched up...you don’t know what your talking about anyway..............

Scorpy...yeah...that’s why you responded......because your not paying attention...ok

A turnip with pedophelia on the brain. Anyway the point was islam and facism. I agree with several posts who pointed out the disimilarities between the two. The only counterpoint I would make is despite the fact that Al-Queda, Hezbollah, and Hamas are not true nation states they draw support from their various tribes, sects, and countries of origin. They also carry considerable weight with the Muslim street. The one common denominator between facism and Islam is the drive for world domination. A well written dissection of Islam I have found is........

http://www.islamundressed.com

So...all insults aside....Does not Amerika represent the same problem ?......Hell..the US DOES DOMINATE THE WORLD ;...so who’s the real fascist...using religion...any religion...as a cover , for their nationalist propaganda ?......Care to comment TI ?.............Is not this the same difference.............?

Are not you poking your finger in your own eye.....?

Ever hear the story about two , one-legged men in a mutual butt-kicking contest.....?
One was a christian the other a muslim....Question...who wins.....?

Vernon Richards appears to be nothing but a propagandizing provocateur...no critical study of Islam can be accurate without the mythological context...additionally there should be a comparative analysis of other religions on a parallel basis...so that the perspective is not misleading.....

Er Scorp,

How will we ‘wipe them out’ and how will we know when they are ‘wiped out’? Waiting to hear from the ‘gwot is the cold war redux ‘crowd’ for some on this one. Just this once, could we havve some rational basis for determining the truth claims of the ratbag right.

Why is it important to define this activity or decide on an universally acceptable label?

Fascism? Religious or Secular Radicals? Historical comparisons?

What some other group of nuts did or whose religious feelings are trampled on be damned!

The UN is a gold mine for late night comics as are most politicians of any party or country.

The only thing that matters is that enough international cooperation is mustered to stop this nonsense. Soft pedaling it as �Troubling Tendencies� is just plain bull shit!  There is no excuse for this behavior by anyone. Next they will be blaming early toilet training.

When ITT downplays this it only serves to justify it for those participating.

Unfortunately, those wacky leftists (you can’t call ‘em liberals) already dumbed down the identification of all of society’s problems long ago on early toilet training and other meaningless childhood “traumas”.

Boy....ol’ Bushy really has done a number on you WTH...try meditation...go play with the grandkids....

Now Jay Cline....what are you talking about...Did you say...you’ve never been toilet trained....? Soo....either you one nasty smelli’n dude or you wear diapers.....Dude...you need too keep that info too yourself......

I don’t understand the apologists for Islam. Is it a desire to be different? Like the Drama club in high school? Is pointing the finger at every other issue somehow providing us with security? Don’t we all have a vital interest in protecting ourselves? I am a political independent. I vote for issues not party line. Since 9-11 it seems the center is being forced into one extreme or another. I dislike both extremes. I would like to have a meaningful dialoge without rethoric. We all have to live together long after Iraq is another forgotten war.  Islam has been attacking us for over thirty years. Despite all the assurances that Islam is peace actions speak louder than words. So a simple question......What action would you find acceptable? Appeasement and ignoring the issue have brought us to this point. I am willing to listen to any suggestions.

Lagomorph -

Why are you posting as “Jane Doe”?  Still having identity crisis issues, are you?  Feeling schizo again, or still?  Get your personality and psyche settled down, and then we can talk.  Or not.

scorp,
you haven’t a clue have you. Just answer the question. How will we do what you want, and how will we know when we have succeeded. If you are finding it hard to concentrate, I understand they are prescribing Ritalin these days.

TI.....Nobody is apologizing for anything...Reading your posts so far ; it appears that, even though you say you are an independent....you are very much still under the spell of the christian nationalist industrial military complex....As stated in the past....YOU NEED TO LEARN HOW TOO THINK FOR YOURSELF.......
Stop analysising from the 9/11 perspective...look at the big picture....
Islam is not the enemy....ignorance , based in misinformation , a collective immaturity as a nation , and good ol’ amerikan greed is a place too start .......
Stop looking at the situation as a cowboy....
Look at all the underhanded economic activity that this nation has been involved in.......
Put that shoe on your foot ....then ask yourself....” Would you and yours quietly put up with that kind of disingenuous activity....
Look...amerika is a extremely racist , xenophobically challenged society...These issues not only have never been dealt with...they are and have been exported to other regions of the world....If amerika is too be the world leader ...ya can’t piss on others parade...people as a general rule don’t appreciate that kind of interference…

By the way TI....Redhorse is a registered independent....
The ideological freedom represented by that fact...requires “ independent thought and action “....with a strong preference toward fair and peaceful activities in your personal and community ( world ) dealings.....

In an interview with The American Interest, former Senator John Danforth (an ordained Episcopal priest) suggested an ecumenical conference as a first step to this “clash of religions”. Get the leaders of all three major branches of the Abrahamic tradition to agree that the deliberate targeting and killing of innocents is simply and flat out wrong,, sort of a fatwa against recent fatwas condoning it.

By itself, it won’t solve anything, but it would take the wind out of the moral legitimacy such groups as al-Qaeda have been literally using as shields.

Tex, Scorp & Redhorse,

I�ve been reading �On the Home Front� (Alistair Cooke � 1941), an editorial by Tony Blankley (Washington Times � now) and a small booklet, �Britain� (1943) picked up at an antique store.

Both Cooke and Blankley pointed out how long it took for people to realize to fully accept they were at war. Blankley is English and a naturalized US citizen and compares England during the �Phony War� period with us now.

In �Britain� there is an article which mentions the image of Americans was based on movies and novels of the time, so we were thought to be either cowboys or gangsters.� With the speed and scope of satellite news I believe we are all getting sound bite imaging and a lot of distortion.
Ty aye yippee aye A, Youse guys!

-------------------
Also, I recently read, �The Life And Times of Andrew Jackson�.� We may think politicians are brutal today, but some of the dirty tricks a rumors started back then are hard to top. There were advantages to slow-flow info.

Redhorse,

Maybe it�s just that I can�t possibly identify with racial discrimination, but certainly not everything is based on it.

Let�s assume the rioters and suicide bombers feel discriminated against. Let�s also agree they are pissed off at the U.S. for being in their face. Why should their attitude and behavior therefore be acceptable as �Troublesome Tendencies� as some people allow their kids to be totally obnoxious and �just going through a Phase� ?

I guess you see my concerns about shooting a nun, burning churches (the most recent over reactions) and all the past attacks on so many countries (not just the U.S.) as being gullible to the Bush claim that we are at war.  Well, I have been aware of this as a war far longer than W has been president and puzzled as to why we didn�t just erase all those training camps a decade or more ago.

J.C.

Referring to the current state of govt in the US as fascist is not “taking it one step further.” It’s here - albeit somewhat updated to include the abuse of the democracy we once had.

Which leads me to your quote:

“Maybe the real issue is that some people are in denial? If the sky is blue but you hate the color blue, then anyone claiming the sky to be blue must be delusional.”

Yes, this is the case, but that quote perfectly describes retardlicans insisting that the green apple turd known as Bush is a shiny new red apple. The pathology couldn’t be more profound. The facts proving Bush and the rest of his crew to be criminals couldn’t be more abundant. But still the denial.

“Islamofascisim”? Egh, it’s just some made up word. There’s obviously no doubt that Islamic fundamentalism has no place in an actual democracy and that there are so many negative aspects to it. But it’s just the blatant hypocrisy of the retardlicans that make me (and most Americans at this point) sick. Republicans clearly don’t understand their own system of govt....or the bill or rights or the constitution. You expect me to believe that you actually know anything about Islam?

WTH....Man...I feel where you’re coming from....

This morning , before work , I was checking out the FRONTLINE web-site....one of the programs that could be viewed on-line was called “ a class divided “...originally filmed in the small farming community of Riceville, Iowa back in ‘68....Redhorse highly recommends that you view the program.....maybe the woman school teacher ; in the film , can explain the basic effects of xenophobia and racism better than the Horse........This film was very interesting...please view it as soon as possible...it’s only about 1 hour long....Looking forward too a discussion about the film......just google frontline and look for the link...” a class divided “........................true…

A fact that tells the difference between apologists and concerned citizens.....................

The first Muslim attack on American citizens took place in 1972. The PLO { Of course} Since that time 7002 American Citizens have been killed and another 19368 have been wounded by Islamic “troubling tendencies” Thats not including 498 killed and 5023 wounded by the various embassy bombings. When is the right time to put an end to their “troubling tendancies” for good?

You are right..TI...THIS IS MY SOLUTION ! ! !
Go too your kitchen , turn the oven on , and put your head in the oven....now breath deeply....your “ troubling tendencies “...will be solved momentarily....

Body Countin’ Moron...............................................

You been swallowin’ that chewin tobacco again ; that must hurt...REAL BAD...comin out........

Redhorse,

Thanks for the reference, but I can�t view videos. I have enough trouble just getting back into this site. I have been waiting to get high speed connection before upgrading my computer.

I got a notice on my doorknob that DSL (AT&T;) is available in my neighborhood. My phone company (McLeodUSA) could not tell me if true or not. (I talked to �Linda� in India and finally her supervisor � both told me they had no way of knowing and they were,�Sorry, but we cannot connect you with someone in the U.S.�

Great! USA is part of the name and I can�t reach anyone here to find out anything. This never happened when Ike was president.

So I called AT&T;to switch my account (DSL is NOT available by the way, but they have better music while you wait...and wait… and wait.)

That was August 1. It was supposed to be transferred to them Aug 18. I called again on 8-21, 8-28, 8-31 � still nothing has happened. I know my business is important to them because they have told me countless times.

I used to wonder what I would do when I retired � now I know.

Sorry, I know this is not directly related to the topic, but in a way it is. I am constantly bombarded with phone ads � on TV, in the mail, the internet, hanging on my door � all kinds of information...BUT…

Getting a truthful answer to a question is next to impossible. Everyone was polite, they all said they were happy to be able to serve me, and each one assured me that I would have my request fulfilled. I even got a letter from AT&T;welcoming me.

I think the same is true with the news. Everyone is good at talking � short on accuracy and truth.
---------------------

P.S. If AT&T;sends me a bill for service you will see ME on the evening news � I may have �Troubling Tendencies� the world has not yet seen.

Sounds like you need the “ Peoples Court “ or “ Judge Judy.”.....Redhorse thinks it’s a Al Queda plot...they know WTH is on their tail so “ no high speed internet for you “ those internet Nazi bastards.....Hang in there WTH , don’t do anything rash...the way ol’ Bush & Co. operate ; you could end up in jail , with no habeus corpus writ.....Get arrest tonight....go before the judge for bail 2016.....that is definitely not cool........
I think ol’ Redhorse would definitely fight too the death in that situation...the way they rendition folks...NO WAY...I’m standin’ my ground hook or crook...either that or a hunger strike....I’m not playin’ their game…
So chill...I wouldn’t what to have to use your arrest as bait for my homegrown terrorists theories...............
Now if Homeland Security agents come to Redhorse and ask about WTH....Redhorse doesn’t know you , never talked too you on the .net.......WT..who.....?

Just teazzin’ WTH...good luck with the upgrade...and please...do not forget the video...Frontline...” A Class Divided “................

Hello Jay Decline, good to see the worlds dumbest arsehole is still pretending to be a human.

Rabbit just recieved notice from a friend that the Scorpy is seeing rabbit’s everywhere.  Is there rabbit’s in your nightmares little sCorpse?

It will no doubt be just another thing for you to refuse to believe my poor fact challenged little troll, but Rabbit posts as Rabbit.  He has on occasion been Ghostrabbit and also Rabbitvoz, but in all the years on the net, only these three handles have I known. 

It so happens that I have not read this article, and nor am I going to.  I have become dis-enamoured with ITT, considering them to be a left gatekeeping site. Besides which I also find that pompous hubristic twits like yourself and Jay Jay the moron, not to mention feeble shills like Nat the Bat, are just too revolting and far too prevalent on a site which rarely supports more than a handfull of intelligent posters like Redhorse, Frog and others who know who they are.  (As opposed to those who merely think they are, eh Scorpy?)

I can see Jane Doe is an Aussie girl in which case I’m sure she will be able to bounce your foolish head all over the thread, and I wish her well. As for Rabbit he will stick with the ICH crowd, who by the way include dozens of Aussies.

So while it amuses me no end that you are seeing rabbits under your bed, I am only dropping by to point out that you have once again showed thyself to be a fuckwit.  That makes twice now you have assumed an Aussie flag denotes rabbits.  Do you think that I have this great big country all to myself litle Scorpy?  Perhaps you think I like to dress up in womens clothes too?  Being an eminently masculine hopper, with very big balls, if only a medium sized donger, I would no sooner parade myself as a female than I would kiss your well lubricated arsehole as it happens.

Bye Bye Scorpling.  You and Jay have a good time now. 

Hello WTH, Rabbit does miss you, a bit, for while you are a drongo, you are at least only a semi-moron, and from time to time even resemble a thoughtful person. However since your own case of cognitive disonance is crippling your progress, it seems pointless trying to educate you.  Best you just stick with your slogans and delusions anyway, they obviously make you feel good.

Keep on punishing these creeps Redhorse, they surely need it.

Here is a parting gift.

By the way, just glancing down the page.  That Texas Idiot needs to be called on those phony figures for Americans killed by Muslim extremists.

They are totally wrong, and most of the incidents of so called Islamic extremism have eventually proven to have been Israeli false flag attacks, like 9/11.

Your real enemies are and have always been the zionists.  They are the only country which has attacked the USA in the last sixty years. Cowards. Cringing morons who fear a few extremist Muslims who act against the dictates of Islam which is a much more peaceful religion than Christianity and both are vastly more peaceful than the Jewish religion of revenge and hatred and genocidal tendencies. Gutless crawling torturing, kidnapping, thieving hubristic hypocrits. I guess you do make a good pair with Israel.  How must it be to be owned by a terror state?  Do you enjoy working to pay taxes to prop up a war criminal and apartheid regime of baby killers and genocidal well poisoners?  Sure you do, that’s why you’d sell a US Naval ships crew and their captain to the devil rather than admit they are just telling the truth.  DIRTY DOGS!

Call this man a liar in an effort to suck the zionist teat, you hypocritical America hating traitors!

Support the troops is just a hollow slogan like so many others which cowardly morons rely on instead of ideas. When the choice is between admitting something might be wrong with the USA, and supporting your own service people, you’d sell them for a bit of false peace of mind. Cowards are so predictable.

I won’t be sticking around here to see the spluttering excuses and ranting rhetoric from the morons, but I do wonder what it would take to get such gutless wonders to admit an unpleasant truth.

By the way, Islamofascist is an OXYMORON.  Morons.  Islam which means peace, is anathema to corporate controlled government and all other aspects of fascism.  Which is exactly why your moron emperor sees them as a threat.

Rabbit!

You figured out how to IP spoof ITT’s little flag!

Redhorse,

It is amazing how you sound like Rabbit of old, and Rabbit is now, finally, able to construct complete sentences.

Ah, the miracles of modern medicine.

We are not fooled.

Rabbit...much appreciation for all the links...Elias Vlanton of ICH war cost counter...is literally right up the road from the Redhorse barn...Takoma Park , Md is qiute an EZ gallup from my home.....

Do visit often...as the rabbit wit is much needed and often lacking in many of the neanthropic neo-con pustulates who troll on this site...................

Natalie , Scorp , Jay Ku Klux Klan Cline...and TexasIdiot are all supercilious pusillanimously driven ass mounters...who find their glory in a sort-of collective humping motion , resemblance of the mating ritual of the genus rattus......funny thing though.... ..none of them can find the hole.....silly little trolls...that can’t find the hole....Natalie screams out..."stop it Scorp...that’s my ear..not my rear.....”, then she says..."Jay do be a dear..and put it here . in Scorps rear “...TexasIdiot and Natalie look on as Jay Klan mounts Scorp and together , sing Scorps favorite song...” push it back..push it bach..waaay back..................................genus perpetualis-rattus.........

SUCH A COMPLIMENT...from the likes of you Jay ku klux klan...thank you....but hey...don’t what to interrupt your fun with your friends....One bit of ad-vice though...if you want too breed...put it in the womb...not the tomb.............................true dumb ass.........

Rabbit/Redhorse,

Amazing how Redhorse not only has the same hare-brained syntax, but shares the same nomenclature when dissing his superiors.

Rabbit,

So, your “vacation” just happened to coincide with ITT’s attempt, with the little IP-sourced flags, to minimize the abuse of split personalities from the same IP address?

Miracle of miracles. Or, do we have the foundation for another hare-brained conspiracy theory??

Hmmmm,

So it is just a coincidenece that a doe is a female rabbit?

Uh-huh.

Good Grief charlie Brown, just think if they start breeding on the internet!

Actually, given the previous history of gender-bending on this site, I have wondered if a doe was more of an illumination source. Been pretty dark round here, about as long as Rabbit’s vacation.

WTH...Then we would have a bunch of nano-nazis runnin’ around this web-site.....bombing links and pointing the finger at Redhorse.....

Well, I found this argument so stultifyingly uninteresting I didn’t check back on it until I stumbled on it again today, and now what can I say: my oh my!

I’m tickled by the assumption by Jay Cline that the ridicule was not directed at him or herself.

>>Maybe its just the the banal semantic quibbling, the presentation of
>>extreme moronism in logical form, and the apparent obfuscatory defence
>>of a repulsive political position, but does anyone smell anything funny
>>here?

>>Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 23, 2006 at 5:22 AM

>staedlerjr,

>You’d have to be more specific.

>Which quibbling, Salim Muwakkil’s or Orwell’s?
>United States Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 23, 2006 at 5:22 AM

Few people have any clue as to what neocons are....and what they believe...and how much power and control they exert in this administration..

I think the truth will horrify most.  These warmongers are neither conservative or new.......

Must read:

CLICK HERE

http://tvnewslies.org/html/the_truth_about_george_w__bush.html

Skip -

Well, I read your site, and I checked out Jesse’s data.  What a crock.

The line-up is pretty impressive:  John Poindexter, Elliot Abrams, Otto Reich, John Negroponte, and Rogelio Pardo-Maurer. These men were all rewarded with powerful jobs in the Bush government for their felonious and murderous backgrounds. 

None of these fine public servants have a standing felony conviction, except that Pardo-Maurer seems not to have a comprehensive bio on the web, so I can’t tell about him.  But as a high public official, I doubt Pardo-Maurer has a criminal conviction.  Poindexter is the only one of the group who actually had a felony conviction, but it was overturned for prosecutorial misconduct.  Abrams had two misdemeanor convictions for lying to Congress, which might be reprehensible, but might equally be commendable.

The actions of these dedicated and talented individuals that you and Jesse object to were the result of fighting leftists during the Cold War, and, more recently, in Chavez’s Venezuela.  And you think I have a problem with that?  Fuck no, I don’t have a problem with that.

You dumb-ass leftists are all BOO-HOO-HOO when Americans defend themselves, but are quite sanguine about the tens of millions of innocent victims of socialism and communism. 

Neo-Cons are all Democrats who objected to leftists trying to take over the USA.  Having been Democrats, they might well be a little sloppy with the truth (Bill Clinton is a convicted perjurer) or might engage in deceptive practices (Rathergate).  We will house-train the Neo-Cons, and assure their exemplary behavior.  But when are you lying leftists going to straighten up?

staedlerjr

If you cannot understand irony, then continue to play with yourself.

Damn...JC....first you tell folks you’re not toilet trained...now you want to masturbate on the ITT web-site....

Are you ok......?

Internet porn is big time...maybe you should try that...it seems like a more appropriate location..”.don’t you think.”..or I should ask...” do you think.”..no what , I got it..”.you don’t know how to think.”......?

So, Rabbit/Redhorse - care to share your voluminous bookmarks on the subject?

Well...let me see...by fanning the flames of xenophobic religious bigotry...Bush is playing the same ugly , misinformation game that has been played for about 1800 years.....

The byproduct of this xrb’s rhetorical bullshit is the same all thoughout history...which is more...ignorance..war..hate...and suffering…

But JC...WHY WOULD YOU CARE...?

Being a scared , immature white anglo-saxon bigot from the US OF A-ssholes...you’re immune from critics or blame…

It’s everybody else that’s at fault......

Is this not the view the rest of the world gets these days...one of a bores little snot...that got pulled into this mess by his over-educated university of chicago moronic neo-con buddies.......

R&R;,

You need to work harder on keeping your personas separate.

Rabbit is the one from Australia.

Redhorse is the one from the US OF A-ssholes.

Nice try JC...but ya still shootin’ bricks....

Redhorse may have been born in the oven...but that don’t make me a biscuit…

I have been extremely blessed ; not to be infected with the “ ostentious cripple “...that is the “ Hobgoblin “ of little minds and overblown egos...here in the US of A-ssholes…

Buckfush is still a moron and a little snot....

And you JC are an anal-retentive Anglo-Saxon bigot.......

R&R;,

Not at all. You misunderstand. I think using multiple personas is an excellent vehicle in debate. I merely offer my humble assistance in helping you to get it right.

And you can lay off the provocative racist slurs. They are sloppily executed and quite ineffective.

I am neither Anglo nor Saxon.

But we are all bigots, in one sense or another.

Well ol’ boy...whoever you are...really is no concern for the Redhorse…

It’s the obesquious follower mentality that all you flag waving zealots feed into…

Now as far as the alleged racist slurs...I contend that no such slurs was rendered...The term anglo-saxon is not a slur...although not the ethnicity of the JC…

Further your bigotry is evidenced by your stated posts....shall we go back and review all the half-witted illogical attempts that the JC has lettered......

Finally...JC believes that...yes we are all bigots...well, son...let me tell yu...you wear it well; like a glove…

But please...don’t make the assumption that your disability is the downfall of us all…

And I, kind rabbit, contend you are a horse.

Ipso Facto. You are.

You really must pen an article on hare-brained logic, so the rest of us mortals can follow you.

I am glad to see the usual trolls are stalking us once again. Let’s start with this:

Fascism as a political typology doesn’t fit anywhere in the Islamic world because it is a self-consciously modern ideology and system which applies only to modern nation-states and modern mass society. These fascist states use modern institutions, technology, and forms of organization to consolidate and centralize their political power. They tend to have highly developed, industrialized economies which are capable of autarchy and not easily subject to foreign domination. They are deeply nationalist and use myths of historic national glories to mobilize the support and compliance of the masses. They also impart a sense of national destiny to the people who they believe are unified by an organic connection to the nation and its destiny. They mobilize all sectors of society, labor, women, youth, various middle class occupations, farmers, soldiers, and civil servants in ways that serve and glorify the state. There is no opposition to the state allowed. The leader and party embody the nation and its mission all of which are deemed “above politics.”

These political sensibilities are distinctly European although they have also been seen in other societies like Japan between 1868 and 1945.  Islamic theocracies have nothing in common with modern European-style fascist states. In the first place fascism is highly irreligious as it glorifies race, nation, the military, and all human centered achievements. It is also highly arrogant and celebrates the unlimited potential of human destiny and of the ubermench (superhuman individual). In this sense, European fascism is highly Nietzchean and extolls the greatness of the individual Will. Most European fascists view Christianity as a Jewish myth contrived to suppress the greatness of the barbarian races. I cannot think of anything more opposite Islam and its belief and value systems which respects both Judaism and Christianity as integral to the story and deveopment of Islam.

There are many authoritarian and illiberal ideas and social and political systems in human history.  They vary greatly in terms of their structure, practices, cultural orientation, and underlying belief systems. Simply being authoritarian doesn’t make them fascist. Fascism is a very specific historic phenomenon with specific features. The reason many of our trolls don’t get it is that they like things nice and simple and in false dichotomies like they receive it on right-wing AM talk radio.  The world is not that simple, however. One must understand the complexity of the various typologies of human society, political systems, and ideas.  But what right-winger doesn’t like things nice ‘n simple?

cabdriverinchicago,
I admire your perserverane in the face of the most amazing idiocy, however it is clear there is absolutely no point. I suspect now that blogs like this are used by right wing spin meisters as a means of ‘running up’ talking points for the great unwashed, as a means of seeing who salutes the ‘flag’. It is irrelevant that the term islamofascist applied to a movement like Al-Quaeda is nonesensical.

The IF term has been designed to link in people’s minds, the ‘good war’ 1939-1945, with the current gwot. The fact that this project is both conceptually as well as politically doomed, is neither here nor there. You can tell by the posts here that real world analysis is entirely beside the point on these issues, because if it was the point, the republican party would be absolutely flattened at the next polls, which I don’t believe it will be (although they will lose seats), and the Dems would be running an anti war strategy, which they are not.  Face it, patriotism of the ‘my country can’t do any wrong’ type always trumps any attempt to ground opposition in reasoned analysis, and that is why trolls here try out ‘talking points’ that are on the face of it, absolutely stark staring mad..

cabdriver,

Fascism ... applies only to modern nation-states and modern mass society.

Why?

These fascist states use modern institutions, technology, and forms of organization to consolidate and centralize their political power. They tend to have highly developed, industrialized economies which are capable of autarchy and not easily subject to foreign domination

Circular logic. Fascism only applies to modern states because they are modern? Industrialization and the use of technology does not define fascism. That they are effectively wielded by fascists does not make the tools themselves indicative and necessary for fascism.

They are deeply nationalist and use myths of historic national glories to mobilize the support and compliance of the masses. They also impart a sense of national destiny to the people who they believe are unified by an organic connection to the nation and its destiny. They mobilize all sectors of society, labor, women, youth, various middle class occupations, farmers, soldiers, and civil servants in ways that serve and glorify the state. There is no opposition to the state allowed. The leader and party embody the nation and its mission all of which are deemed “above politics.”

And how do Islamofascists differ? This is precisely the starting point of the use of the label “Islamofascist”.

These political sensibilities are distinctly European although they have also been seen in other societies like Japan between 1868 and 1945

Only Europeans, and only modern Europeans are even capable of fascism? uhm, does the phrase “racist tendencies” mean anything to you? It should. You are clearly demostrating them right now.

In the first place fascism is highly irreligious ... and Simply being authoritarian doesn’t make them fascist.

Points already addressed. Page up a few comments.

Starboy, er LB, er Joh.., er Jane Doe,

cabdriverinchicago,
I admire your perserverane in the face of the most amazing idiocy, however it is clear there is absolutely no point.

If you really must insist on following Rabbit/Redhorse’s lunacy into hiding your schizophenia, try at least to change the cadence and intonation of your comments.

I really expect one of these days your counterpostings will start with your ‘ol standby, “Not at all.”

Jay,
You haven’t a clue. Go back to the thinktank and try and be a bit more plausable. You are a bit too transparent for anybody who is neither certifiably insane or ohas completd at least five years formal schooling.
If you think the gwot is like WW2, when will we know we have won, and perhaps more importantly, what are the goals of this exciting enterprise? The elimination of all those who profess Islam?1.2 billion poeple will take some firepower to wipe out old son, but the rhetorical principle is masterful-until the rest of the world just decides that the US really has to give up running a political mobilisation gechnique that has all the hallmarks of actually exisitng fascism. Go somewhere where they think the Rapture books are both history and prophecy!

Oh JC...If only Redhorse had more time for your nonsense...but alas it is Monday morning and one must go to work...but look JC , real qiuck....

Fascism is a system of Gov’t that promotes corporate control over Gov’t agencies…

The trend developed in western europe...but without hesitation this dis-ease has been spreading throughout the so-called amerikas and in time..with the help of nuckle-heads like Bush/ Cheney and Rumsfeld...and possibly yourself ; will find a seat in the old world of what is now referred to as the middle east....

This is why folks in this region fight so hard against the US invader...They don’t want your fascist dis-ease…

Folks in this region of the world have enough problems...without US intervention.......

JD,

Already gave you my answer, dude.

Waiting for intelligent life to respond.

Go somewhere where they think the Rapture books are both history and prophecy!

Got no desire to live in Iran.

Redhorse,

you knucklehead. You even spell like Rabbit.

amerika??

Yes JC, I always spell “ Amerika “ with a “ K “…

Redhorse also spells “ Afrika “ with a” K” .

You just notice that...you slower than I previously believed you to be.........

Some would spell your name as Jay Kline..........true…

So in all three examples , what do we find...that phonetically the “ C “ is pronounced as a ; come on now JK...SAY IT WITH ME...like you’re a 3 year old.......” K “.......

Now JK....Redhorse would explain the cultural significance of that spelling...that the letter “K” is preextant to the letter “ C “....rendering the letter K as pre-eminent to the softer C....but it would be lost on you.................

Rabbit,

Your feigned irrational logic and deliberate jester-like stupidity doesn’t fool me. The only reason your provocative talents are wasted here is that you actually believe no one else is clever enough to get it.

I thought that a lexicon might need an atlas to go with it.

Well JK...Sense you get “ IT “...Whatever you mean by “IT”....Why so clueless....?

You need to work harder on keeping your personas separate.

Jay, do you really believe that Rabbit and Redhorse are the same person?
Do you see rabbits under your bed too?

Starboy, er LB, er Joh.., er Jane Doe,

And that Jane Doe is Luminous Beauty or someone else?

If so I think that you need to take a break from all of this as it has possibly begun to have a detrimental effect on your mind.

You may be experiencing paranoid delusions.

Please seek help. I offer my humble assistance :)

Jay Cline

You obviously never read a scholarly book on Fascism. You also don’t understand the political nature of propaganda. To say that I am a racist for limiting fascism to modern European and other highly advanced societies is ignorant!!  Fascism is not just authoritarian rule. One of the reasons that it is limited to Europe and Japan under the Emperor is that the concept of a nation-state is absolutely instrumental. The historic specificities of European political development between the 1880s and the start of WWII, nationalist and racial ideology, the creation of nation-states out of Continental Empires, the abolition of political competition vesting all authority in a vanguard Fascist Party which sees itself as the ebodiment of the nation’s destiny, the use of scientific and bureacratic methods of organization to control the populace through regimentation of daily routines and mass inculcation through a highly controlled mass media, and the glorification of the state through mass organizations which indoctrinate the masses is a typology of rule which is highly modern, urban, and sophisticated.

Jane Doe is correct that Islamo-Fascism is a figment of the Neo-conservative imagination and is only used to pander to uneducated people as a hot button issue or buzz word to elicit mindless agreement and support. This is itself a fascist tactic. The reason you troll these sites is to be disruptive and try to confuse those novices who want to explore the left’s views. You don’t have a lot to say which is substantial.

Islamic theocracies have nothing in common with modern urban based fascist dictatorships of the mid-twentieth century.  Islamic society doesn’t use bureacratized organizations or political parties to structure, manage, and control society. They don’t preside over highly industrialized societies with technology that allows profound social control. They are highly fragmented societies not unified ones. The key institutions are the Madrass and the Mosque not a modern political party or the military.  The state is far more powerful under fascism.  Islamic societies are based on a loose network of patron-client ties not disciplined modern institutions. Centralized rule is nearly impossible. These are weak states not strong ones. Fascist Italy, and to a greater extent, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan all had strong, technologically advanced, modern autarchic economies that necessarily had the ability to (a) function without external aid or normal levels or foreign trade and investment, and (b) could sustain high levels of heavy industrial production enabling the state to wage protracted convential wars. Contrast this with the utter dependency of Afghanistan which relies on the international heroin trade and massive amounts of foreign aid, or Iran which would get nowhere without its oil revenues The only reason Iran is as modern and centralized as it is is because of over 25 years of rule by a pro-Western monarch whose entire bureacracy and military was foreign trained and educated. The Shah came close in 1975 to modern fascism with his secular Rastiquiz (Renaissance) Party. He attempted to imbue a sense of European-style nationalism by declaring Iran a unified Persian nation-state with a single Persian destiny.  The rise of a new Theocracy banished all such European ideas in favor of Islam and its rejection of nationalism and racial ideas.

David,

Your absence has been sorely missed.

If you could clarify the dichotomies fostered by the usual suspects, I would welcome it. It is certainly possible after such close and prolonged contact with diseased carriers that the conspiratorial bug has afflicted me as well.

After all, I have mere circumstantial, er, circumstances to base my hypothesis on.

1) ITT institutes a “flag-waving” icon to give virtual denizens a geography lesson.

2) Many of these demons subsequently went ‘poof’.

3) These same denizens, who have self-identified their own past schizophrenia, had made virtual claims of specific national origin.

4) When the pudding was cooked, they disappeared (hmm, about the same time our calm Canuck vanished from these pages, too....was there a summer camp that I wasn’t invited to?)

That, of course, is mere and idle speculation.

Yet, any good profiler (or any reasonably semi-literate person) would notice the striking parallels in Rabbit/Redhorse’s diatrib