Hurricane Katrina made clear that poverty and blackness remain too intertwined to be coincidental. But while too many black people remain poor, a growing number do not. Since 1968, the year of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s death, the black middle class has tripled, as measured by the percentage of families earning $50,000 or more. But the percentage of black… return to article
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Reader Comments (48)Page 1 of 1 pagesI guess my husband and I would be considered members of the “Afristocracy”, and no the black middle class has not lost its mind, it’s lost its patience. I grew up in a poor single parent household with two siblings and no money in the 60’s on the south side of Chicago, am 44 years old, well educated, make a very good buck, and resent being chastised because I don’t totally buy into the mindset of “The man just keepin’ a brotha down. It’s all the white man’s fault,” and other such drivel. I will be the first to admit that there is racism but it was a lot worse in the past and African Americans managed to overcome the limitations to become doctors, lawyers, college professors, etc. I am one of them, so please spare me.
No, I don’t want to live in a neighborhood filled with random gunshots. No, I don’t want to have a drug dealer on every corner yelling “I got work”. No, I don’t want to shop where there is bullet proof glass and a little turning basket. No, I don’t want to live where children run in the streets like wild banshees. In short, I don’t want to live in the environment that you create and wish to perpetuate. Let’s face it you could change all of the above if you chose. Strangers aren’t coming into your community doing these things, the members of your community are. No white people are pushing drugs on the corner in Englewood, black folks are.
Well, sorry members of the “Ghettocracy” that you are having such hard times. Maybe if you had gotten an education you would be better off. Maybe if you had obeyed the law you wouldn’t be an ex-con. Maybe if you stopped buying into the negative stereotypes being perpetuated by gangster rap and hip hop you would have a more balanced worldview. Maybe you should start looking at the man in the mirror to explain your situation, but stop blaming me.
Posted by Adocann on Oct 18, 2005 at 7:05 AM Here is a simple question: who should we listen to, a man like Cosby who tells the hard truths or a man who believes such idoicy as: “Their behavior patterns are adaptations to the limited options they face in a white supremacist culture”?
For me, the choice is easy.
If you want to excel, excel. Study hard. Work hard. These are not “white” traits or values, these are human values. Opportunity is available, but it requires personal effort. Sitting around blaming your problems on others is just stupid and unproductive.
Disclaimer. Life is not fair. For anyone. After one succeeds in their goals, they should feel free to offer help to those “left behind”. A perfect example is Cosby. . .
Posted by wolf on Oct 18, 2005 at 9:16 AM I’ve said this before in nearly all of Salim’s articles, which I do greatly enjoy, but it needs to be said again.
Salim: You consistently speak of the growing incarcaration rate of African American males but you never ever speak of what causes this or speak out against it. The War on Drugs is essentially the sole reason for this epidemic, please In These Times and please Salim write an article about the relationship between the War on Drugs and African American males incarcaration rates.
Thanks
www.votenader.org
www.norml.org
www.naacp.org
www.aclu.org
www.ssdp.org
Posted by NaderRaider on Oct 18, 2005 at 12:30 PM No one can deny there remains a race problem and to characterize it as a “low intensity conflict” is as apt as any.
Where the problem stems from and why it seems perpetual is the nexus of disagreement.
Anyone remember the Mayflower Compact’s “no work, no eat” clause? Our forefathers were smart enough to realize EVERYONE had to pull their share of the load.
Why is it primarily American Blacks who refuse to assimilate into the homogeneous American culture? Other cultures have arrived, assimilated, aspired and succeeded while retaining their own cultural identities.
How has the message delivery of victimization over the least 40 years by Black ‘Leadership’ led to the present mindset of “it’s not my fault”? And now the message is so ingrained, will the present “ghettocracy” ever listen to a message of simple human values such as productive work, pride in accomplishment, education, desire to succeed within the system?
I believe Cosby is courageously and bravely speaking truth to all who will hear. Unfortunately the power of nihilism is not interested in hearing.
Drug use is merely a symptom, and a convenient entertainment expedient, not a cause of the “ghettocracy’s” current basement position on the economic ladder. In my younger years I smoked my share and did my share of ‘illegalities’ (there goes my future in the FBI) but I belatedly realized that’s no way to attain personal goals.
I’ve hired many people to aid in construction jobs over the years and it is very disheartening to hire a guy who is down on his luck at a wage well above minimum only to have him fail to show up Monday morning then Tuesday confess he “had a big weekend”. To blow a week’s wages on a “big weekend” is the stuff of teenage excess. These guys MUST learn that tomorrow is worth saving and sacrificing for. Teenagers typically learn to constrain such behaviors upon assuming the responsibilities of marriage and family.
Oh yeah, it’s different in the Black community. With no commitment there is no responsibility, right? With no responsibility anything goes, right? Okay, turn up the expletive-laden hip hop and roll the windows down.
Just remember, if society is only as strong as its weakest link then we ALL will suffer the consequences of failure. Like our forefathers on the Mayflower, if any do not work, we all will suffer. Don’t blame it on the whites or the Chinese. Those that save and provide for bad times will suffer less then those that don’t.
Posted by mikeingeorgia on Oct 18, 2005 at 1:36 PM Work hard, reminded me of Aesop’s “ The Ant and the Grasshopper “ and I found this from the Progress Report :
http://www.progress.org/archive/antgrass.htm
The Ant and the Grasshopper
Three Versions!You probably know a version of the story somewhat like this:
The Ant works hard in the heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The Grasshopper thinks he’s a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.
Come winter, the Ant is warm and well fed. The Grasshopper has no food or shelter so he either dies out in the cold, or begs and receives humiliating charity from the ant he teased.
Now, a little background: Don Gifford, in his book The Farther Shore, discusses the old fable of the Grasshopper and the Ant:
That fable from the sixth century B.C.E. has been retold in a variety of ways. In the middle of the spectrum are versions that end with a flat moral tag, pointing out that when he became winter-hungry, “the grasshopper knew it was best to prepare for the days of necessity.”
At the twentieth-century end of the spectrum, the ants are said to take pity on the grasshopper and keep him warm and well-fed so that he is fit to fiddle all winter for the comfort of the children of a consumer society.
At the seventeenth-century end, the ants tend toward the sarcastic: “Since you sang all summer, you may as well dance all winter to the tune you sang all summer.”
Now here’s a new version, written by libertarians as a parody. (We have deleted some gratuitous insults from the text.) See the difference:
When winter comes, the shivering Grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the Ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. CBS, NBC and ABC show up and provide pictures of the shivering Grasshopper next to a film of the Ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food.
America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can it be that, in a country of such wealth, this poor Grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?Bill and Hillary Clinton make a special guest appearance on the CBS Evening News and tell a concerned Dan Rather that they will do everything they can for the Grasshopper who has been denied the prosperity he deserves by those who benefited unfairly during the “Era of Greed.” Richard Gephardt exclaims in an interview with Peter Jennings that the Ant has gotten rich off the “back of the Grasshopper,” and calls for an immediate tax hike on the Ant to make him pay his “fair share.”
The Ant sues, but loses the case.
The story ends as we see the Grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant’s food while he lives in a government house. The Ant has disappeared in the snow. And on the TV they are showing Bill Clinton standing before a wildly applauding audience announcing that a new era of “Fairness” has dawned in America.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 18, 2005 at 5:12 PM In 1989, I participated in a study conducted by the Fair Housing Commision in Chicago. The purpose of the study was to determine the role of racism in the real estate industry. In the study, identical fictionalized backgrounds were made up for two people, one white and one black. (Salary, marital status, type of employment, number of kids, etc.) Both people would express interest in apartments, condominiums and houses that had been advertised in local papers. As you can probably guess, the results were lopsided. The black applicants routinely experienced brush-offs, were told the unit had already been rented or the house was no longer available. Meanwhile, the white applicants were greeted with enthusiasm and limitless cooperation from apartment managers and real estate agents. Maybe things have gotten better since then, but probably not much. Yes, studying hard and working hard are the keys to success. Bill Cosby is right about that. But the mediocre white guy still has a much easier time of it than the bright, dilligent black guy. At least some of the bad behavior we see from the ‘ghettocracy’ is the result of rage toward a rigged game.
Posted by BigDaddy on Oct 18, 2005 at 8:16 PM “Yes, studying hard and working hard are the keys to success. Bill Cosby is right about that. But the mediocre white guy still has a much easier time of it than the bright, dilligent black guy. At least some of the bad behavior we see from the ‘ghettocracy’ is the result of rage toward a rigged game.”
And the mediocre white guy is named Dubya.
I think part of the problem is that the rage has become internalized and self-destructive. While it seems that Cosby and Co. are demanding that the “ghettocracy” go after success despite any racism they will encounter. Being victimized is different from being a victim. The latter is an identity that psychologically leads to developmental stagnation.
Posted by Neruda on Oct 18, 2005 at 10:18 PM Responding to Big Daddy’s mention of rigged games, indeed they are so often rigged, or at least favorites are played and choices made between people from very subjective bases. Now don’t take this as a cynical stance (it isn’t) or that I’m complaining (I’m not) but having had to compete for jobs, financial aid for college, and leadership roles in social and employment venues, I have often observed that there’s one or another level or rigging in a broad range of competitive situations. Sometimes the best qualified doesn’t get the goodies.
Not necessarily the sort of dishonest and frankly racist stuff that BD reports from the Chicago housing study in 1989, but simply recognizing that, whether it was the result of malice or not, some people get breaks and benefits of the doubt more so than others.
Probably they were just better looking than me. Halo effect, ya dig, assuming qualities of character supposedly implied by how photogenic someone is or isn’t.
I’m not bitter about it, it’s just there, part of the terrain (well, in truth, it sucked at the time, but I outlasted it). I’m a pale-faced male with a US passport, so some might think I’d automatically be a born winner in this particular quadrant of the universe, but it aint so. Skin color obviously has a correlation to how many people evaluate you, but being “white” doesn’t put money in your pocket. Raised by a single mom, broke as hell for 3/4 of my life, I’ve worked (yup, worked) to enjoy a respectable status in my profession and left behind my one-step-from-trailer-trash roots.
Those of you who live in trailers, forgive the ugly stereotypical reference.
“Some of my best friends live in trailers.” (sorry, crap joke, couldn’t resist)
I think the best answer to the dilemma of rigged games is to make yourself excellent. Drown out the effects of other people’s favoritisms with your own undeniable accomplishments. True, in a particular venue of competition (e.g. getting that promotion, qualifying for a loan from some bank or other) you might hit a dead-end no matter how cool you can prove yourself to be. So you push on and let it be the loss of the loser who denied you, which it is. I refuse to believe that the advice “Don’t give up” is unrealistic or naive, in fact it’s the only advice that makes sense.
Think of the opposite advice… “Give up.” Devastating.
One last musing of mine concerns the difference between excellence and equality. Lots of kids who excel in school get hassled by their peers because they aspire to something beyond some minimum level associated with the group, which they’re told is stuck-up, a pretense of false superiority (but it’ll be phrased in withering teenage profanity, sometimes with a racial tinge).
I wonder about the extent to which African-American youths hold each other back with criticisms of each other’s excellence. As a teacher I’ve witnessed it in lots of student groups of many “races” (as is known, I think races don’t exist objectively), “black” kids too, but how do students act when teacher is not around? How powerful is that stuff?
What’s the real picture, any of y’all who are in the know?
As powerful an influence as peer criticism may be, I still always put out with the propaganda of seeking excellence rather than equality (propaganda can be true, ya know; “tobacco will fuck up your lungs, quit smoking”...propaganda, and true). I know departing from the group will cost my students something socially, but I believe that if their friends really have their best interests at heart they’ll be proud of their buddy’s achievement rather than jealous.
And really, if your loved ones tell you to hold yourself back on behalf of their own feelings of low self-esteem because you surpassed them, are they really doing you good, or are they doing you harm?
Rhetorical question. Harm, of course! Duh, no-brainer!!
Posted by Kuya on Oct 19, 2005 at 1:38 AM I am a African American man, whom loves his family (a lovely wife and two kids). I understand that there are many pitfalls in life and we must all guard ourselves from them, regardless of race. Being African American in America, poses additional challenges. (racism - poverished neighborhoods etc...) Until we (men) stop walking away from the women who are giving birth to our children the situation will not and never change. Everything starts with family and education. Instilling the proper morals and intellect into our children is the greatest gift any parent can give to their child. My mother always said “just because someone offers you a nickel, doesn’t mean you have to accept it”. Our women and men are selling themselves cheap for a dollar. Bill Cosby is right on, and Mr. Dyson is off base. In my opinion, Mr. Dyson is contributing to the victimized mentality that African Americans loved to lean on when they should be standing strong.
Posted by jruss on Oct 19, 2005 at 6:04 AM To Adocann,
I am a 36 year old from Chicago and grew up in the same environment as well, but just like a Richard Daley Sr and Jr, you have picked up the bad habit of thinking that the poor Black people are happy being poor like “Good Times”. The time you and I grew up in Chicago was the start of the “intergration/destruction” of the Black community. How many of our brothers and sisters kept shopping at Black establishments,grocers as opposed to Dominick’s or Jewel? Did you help tutor kids, I did and my deceased mother was a Chicago Public School teacher who had our clothes made at the black tailors, shoe, repairs, car wash, barber college, ect. If you do not try to help our community vs blasting the “Ghetto” mentality of some who were just born into their condition. I work in DC and visit home each month. I see how the brothers and sisters with degrees and jobs are being pushed out of Chicago. How will those who will provide a good example run away from a neighborhood from which they refuse to help but continuously chastise? Are you Living in Oakbrook, Barrington, or Willmette now or are you willing to help clean up the ghetto thought. I am helping do that in DC and Chicago. What about you?
Posted by chicago_caesar on Oct 19, 2005 at 6:49 AM To Caesar -
Many of us grew up in the same enviroment and it isn’t any more difficult for anyone else, but if a person is unable to exhibit the basic fundamentals in the human thought process, then some one else will do it for you and historically, their interest will supercede yours. It is time for all to exhibit the intelligance and the wisdom that we love to associate ourselves with, when describing kings and queens of Africa. To your reference of Good Times. If recalled correctly, James was always upset and discourage by the power structure. But, they had a strong family unit and made the best out of what they had. JJ, Thelma and Michael were all principled and did not choose to take the “easy way out”. Finally at the end of the sitcom - it show them “making it” and moving out. Why? My opinion is to afford a safer and less hectic way of life. When innocent children are being shot, because some gang decides to kill another gang member, then when is the time to be accountable ?
Posted by jruss on Oct 19, 2005 at 7:30 AM To Neruda -
I agree with you, if correct, your statement suggests that if a person believes he/she is a victim, it can lead to developmental stagnation. I think that an important word here is perception. Many African American adopt the “victim” position from what they are being told. Such leaders as Jesse Jackson who promotes not learning english and learning ebonics. (that is ludacris) Al Saherpton who makes a token run for the presidency, for self promotion. Which reinforces that notion that a black man can’t get to the top. It is very easy for a young black man to come out the womb and cry victim without being victimized. Rappers eloquently rapping about a fast buck and fast women, without a hint of education. All of these things are very destructive to the black community. Before these “so called” leaders decide to speak, they really should take a closer look at the long term, psychological damage that they may inadvertently cause.
Posted by jruss on Oct 19, 2005 at 8:04 AM To Ceasar:
I did not say that poor Black people were happy being poor. What I did say is the state of their community and the activities that occur in it are due to their own behavior. That abberant behavior is what keeps me living in Lakeview.
You do not represent the only indivdual in Chicago that has made an effort to reach out. However, I can only help those who wish to help themselves. Excuse me, but I was “born into that condition” too. The difference is I had a parent who parented, was raised in an enviroment where education was stressed, immorality and disrespect were not allowed, and personal responsibility was expected. Those values have nothing to do with being poor and everytning to do with being sucessful.
Posted by Adocann on Oct 19, 2005 at 8:34 AM To Adocann,& Jruss,
I appreciate your responses and I would like to elaborate on the points you have made. Just like with any parent we need to address the causes of this condition. Bill Cosby ranted about such matters without looking at the fact that he took the European vs. Tribal channel as opposed to organizing a meeting with those of real influence similar to the Stand Bill Russell, Jim Brown and Muhammad Ali did in the 60’s to step up to the mike concerning social and visual issues that King or Malcolm could not reach with the youngsters at the time. Children who are influced by the worst examples of the Black Society do not have the same parenting we had growing up by our parents and the neighborhood WE ALL LIVED IN! You know growing up in Chicago, the Black side of town and the White Side of town. We were all responsible for each other. There are those who complain about Black being better but do not support any biz to help strengthen the community. I was told to lead by example by cutting all of my neighbors grass for FREE, sweeping the streets, picking up garbage, ect to encourage the rest to do the same without abandoning the southside. Do you think Hyde Park, Brigeport was any safer? Would I spen my money on establishments who would never buy from us, but we are critical of our own just to “audition” for the favor of others. My parents told me of how there were those who hated Dr. King only to love him when it profited them. My parents told the first chance they got to “move on up to the East Side” without making it happen on the South Side. Who did that really profit. Not us. It created a vacuum and broke us apart to this point.
If we continue to go in opposite directions, we will be on display at the Museum of Science and Industry. I can’t afford that and won’t stand for it.
I love the dialogueSincerely,
Caesar
Posted by chicago_caesar on Oct 19, 2005 at 11:39 AM Mr. Muwakkil is correct, there is an obvious and growing divide between Blacks in this country, it appears to me to be a cultural divide and its not new. Numerous and various elements have always been present in our communities, the biggest difference now is some of those elements have been left behind economically. I’m a 45 year old born and raised South Sider and can attest that people had all kinds of ways of making money back in the day, whether it was legal and/or orthodox or not wasn’t that big of an issue because everybody understood we were all pretty much in the same boat even if we adapted to the world in different ways. These days it seems like those who haven’t or didn’t adapt in an at least a somewhat legal/orthodox way (education, job or business)want to try to feed off of those who did and if they can’t they want to drag everybody down to their level, thus the cultural differences are dividing communities.
Posted by theloneous on Oct 19, 2005 at 3:20 PM I am a 38yr old AA with a lovely wife and daughter. Both of us were raised in poverty, I on welfare in the Bronx. Today, we are middle class and are able to provide things for our daughter that we never ever had. I do agree with everyone here that points out the importance of hardwork, morality, determination, ethics and education.
But another that attribute is perservearance. Racism is alive and well in America. And the fact that wealth classes are expanding, particularly in our own race, should concern us all. What we have ‘together’ determinse what political influences we will have today and in the future.
Furthermore I rebuke the late-coming self exhalters like Bill Cosby. Where was his scornful criticism when he was much younger? Wehre is his criticism of modern politics and how blacks are mistreated or exploited? And by the examples he has set in his own life, he, by his own actions have stripped his soap-box preachings of any credibility.
I see merits of truth in both arguments, but I want to finish in saying that just because many of us are no middle class or even wealthy, doesn’t give us the ethical clearance to forsake our brothers and sisters, turn our noses up at them because we were successful much more or sooner than they were or have been. What makes us beautiful is that with all our inner and outer glow, our love for our fellow man has always been the backbone of our collective strength and vitality. We need to be careful that we don’t become like other races that put money and power over compassion and inner-culteral cohesion and prosperity.
Posted by dblack on Oct 20, 2005 at 8:50 AM “Furthermore I rebuke the late-coming self exhalters like Bill Cosby.”
I do not see Cosby as a “self exhalter”. He is critical of a segment of black society though. In my opinion, rightly so.
“Where was his scornful criticism when he was much younger?”
He has a much bigger microphone now that he is rich and famous. And more time too, i imagine.
“Wehre is his criticism of modern politics and how blacks are mistreated or exploited?”
I do not know what you are referring to here. Do you think that blacks are singled out for mistreatment and exploitation? Or do you think that the poor are not as well treated as their wealthier cousins? It seems you and your wife have made the transition, perhaps no so different from the white boy writing this now. . .
“And by the examples he has set in his own life, he, by his own actions have stripped his soap-box preachings of any credibility.”
Yes, well, achieving success via hard work and perseverance and then having the audacity to donate huge amounts of resources to help others does make him suspect. But hey, even though he is colored, i still give him the benefit of the doubt. :)
Posted by wolf on Oct 20, 2005 at 9:19 AM To Caesar -
Great response, I applaud your excellence in committment and understanding of the socio- economical aspects of our people. I agree that Mr. Cosby, possibly, should have chosen another forum or means to communicate his thoughts, but, and I firmly believe, the elements in which Mr. Cosby touches upon, are not only legitimate and right on the money, but are painfully truthful, to the extent that it is embarrassing and shameful. And, I also believe that it has always been very difficult for African Americans to admit there own short comings, due to the pain already inflicted upon them through racism. I know, you know and many others know, that inorder to overcome any obstacle, one must look within, period. A ninternal dialogue must exist in everyone, and it must say, I know I can overcome my immediate situation, period. Why do you think most young black men want to be an athlete or an entertainer ? Of course, its all they see, in terms of quick succes, along with fame and money. But, the real answer is, there is no internal focus. The being, which promotes class and dignity. The Purpose, which promotes direction and clarity.
Our young brothers don’t belive in this, because the manipulation is so engrained into our physic that we, not only, cannot recognize what is good for us, but oppose what is good for us. The focus is all on the external, money, cars, fame and sex with as many women as possible. A wise man once said “ that movie camera is worse than any narcotic in this world “ Please, do not give me a fish, teach me how to fish.Stay committed.
Posted by jruss on Oct 20, 2005 at 10:08 AM Dyson persuasively argues that an inequitable system relentlessly victimizes the “lower economic people” Cosby condemned. In contrast to the “Afristocracy,” he has dubbed them the “Ghettocracy” (the black “underclass”, the working class/working poor and the incarcerated).
How did the Afristocracy lift themselves up and how has the Ghettocracy failed to replicate that success? Haven’t both sides started from the same base, or was there a disparity between “these disparate groups” already?
Dyson ... further charges that too many members of the black middle class have abandoned the goals of the civil rights movement that made their existence possible. He cites evidence that well-to-do African-Americans increasingly blame poor blacks for their own plight.
Yet, if the goals of the civil rights movement that made their existence possible are intrinsic to their success, how did the Afristocracy move from the lower to middle classes by abandoning those goals? Did they sell out? With all the work that Dr. Cosby does towards education, how can that conclusion be justified?
I volunteer as a math tutor at a local school that is 80% poor (below the poverty line) and 90% non-white. The failure in the poor neighborhoods is there. The kids (pre-secondary level) are still just kids. They love learning, they love exploring, but at the end of the day, they still have to walk back home, avoiding older kids that have already been hardened by their environment. They get home and many have disadvantaged home lives, for whatever reason. Attacking someone like Dr. Cosby, who is trying to give a light, a beacon to these families; advocating a course of action that shuts out those who have succeeded from those who need the help is more than ludicrous. It is criminal.
It seems that perhaps part of Cosby’s critique ... (as) an attack on the hip-hop culture that venerates and romanticizes ghetto origins is exactly the point. How can you leave the ghetto if it is portrayed as being the sole legitimizing factor of a black person’s existence?
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 20, 2005 at 10:50 AM “And, I also believe that it has always been very difficult for African Americans to admit there own short comings, due to the pain already inflicted upon them through racism.”
Well, from what i can tell, *humans* are rarely willing or able to admit to their own shortcomings. . .
I guess we have all been through too much pain? :)
Posted by wolf on Oct 20, 2005 at 11:32 AM To jruss,
thank you for your comments. to piggyback on this article in the world view and how it will make an immediate impact of things that will follow is the brazen actions Delphi and General Motors will have on working families. This is nothing new but the tatic just opens the door to serfdom then outright indentured sevitude followinfg the slippery slope. We will have an entire country similar to this article with the attempts to “make it big” in the entertainment/sports fields because hard work and years of service are not helping.
Where does William Cosby PhD plan to have all of the super educated people work and make a living if there are no jobs available unless they are low,low cost. Most of the educated people I know learned that “do not sell yourself short”. What part of that should apply to Bill’s equation. In a similar fashion, I refuse to use three terms that as
Black Native of this land: the “N” word the “R” word(DC football) and Minority. They only continue to the cycle of ignorance in the culture.Sincerely,
CaesarJust something to attach to this discussion.
Posted by chicago_caesar on Oct 20, 2005 at 12:46 PM It is tempting to adopt Bill Cosby’s attitude, especially when groups push for affirmative action or welfare programs which go on for a lifetime. Yes, “Hurricane Katrina made clear that poverty and blackness remain too intertwined to be coincidental.”
To understand at least a little of how the problems today do not compare to Cosby’s day and situation. The class divide is growing irrespective of race and will likely be even more extreme in the black community.
Following WW2, thousands of black servicemen and women came home after seeing a different world out there. The migration from south to north netted factory jobs for even the poorly educated. A family could buy a home, car, get an education for the kids and count on a pension.
Globalization has changed all that.The loss of jobs is now hitting even white collar white workers — some with graduate degrees and unpaid student loans. We are just beginning to experience a deflation in wages and salaries. There are thousands who are now if not unemployed, are underemployed. It isn’t just the manufacturing sector and certainly not just those low-end jobs we were supposed to lose to Mexico.
The trickled down effect of this will mean that service jobs will be filled by people who are better educated. They will push the less educated a notch lower on the job chain and so on, until those with the least now — have even less.
A kid now growing up in a ghetto or just a poorer part of town is less likely to have both a mother and a father. Well meaning programs of the ‘60s and ‘70s made it easier to have kids without a traditional family structure. One little girl, who my wife (a teachers’ aide), thought was exceptionally bright in the first grade, was expecting a baby when she was twelve.Picture her — She would be about 30 by now. She probably has a few more children, never finished school and if she is lucky enough to have a job, does not have any benefits, any savings, or any hope of getting them. She may have younger siblings at home as well. May have a mother or grandmother to support. Try telling her to get going and make something of her life. If there is a better job for her somewhere, she has no car and no money — just like the people in New Orleans.
You don’t even have to be black to be in the trap. My son has been on computers for twenty years, but has been working part time (for two years) at less than half of what he earned ten years ago. He is ineligible for unemployment until he has worked one year, full time at the same place.
Last week I met a friend I had not seen for several years. He is not yet old enough to collect Soc.Sec. and is working at a big box sporting goods store for $7.50 an hour.The son of a friend (college education, age 46, 3 kids in high school) was let go from his job of 20 years at an actuarial firm and is doing construction work two days a week.
This is not the same world as Cosby grew up in.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 20, 2005 at 12:56 PM To Whattheheck -
Well said - you put a real economic face onto a sociol situation that warrants real clarification. You make a excellent point by explaining the uncontrollable economic forces that govern this nation.There is a part of me that concurs 100% with everything you have just written, But, as you may know, the economy, has always fluctuated during different historical periods, ie.. wars, deppression, technological advances etc… So, given the nature of the influence, say for instance, WW II, since you mentioned it, will affect the country differently. Most of the men in this country were away fighting in the war, incidentally, creating a drop of in the total number of educated people. Manufacturing was at its peak, now the war is over and the baby boom comes into existence and everyone is going to college, people are becoming more educated and science and technology is advancing. Meanwhile, the country doesn’t need as many big steel items that are manufactured anymore. Things are becoming obsolete. Technology is taking off and manufacturing is decreasing, thus eliminating jobs. But creating new technological and service jobs. The one problem is, there is a level of education that run parallel with these new jobs. So, yes I agree with you, in terms of, loss of jobs, but in this country, it has always been about adaptability. Furthermore, I don’t think Mr. Cosby is referring to the MBA graduate who losses his/her job and is compelled to take a construction position. Of course it is unfortunate, but they are not killing anyone or selling drugs. The disparity, between high school educated blacks vs. whites is alarming. Drop out rates are increasing during a time when education is most important. Again, this country’s economic, sociol and educational make up has experienced major transformations and probably will again. Trying to prepare for something when you do not know what that something is, is very difficult, but education bridges the gap.
Whether we like it or not, America is a capitalistic society, which inherently breeds competition. We must understand and adjust.
Posted by jruss on Oct 21, 2005 at 6:24 AM to jruss,
“Trying to prepare for something when you do not know what that something is, is very difficult, but education bridges the gap.
Whether we like it or not, America is a capitalistic society, which inherently breeds competition. We must understand and adjust.”What you say is accurate, but just as for Bill Cosby, we are all in an era unlike anything in our past. The speed of change is so great it is unlike the switch from agriculture to manufacturing a century ago.
Globalization may be unavoidable, but so is death — in general we like to put it off as long as possible. The push to make this change has made a small percentage of our population disgustingly rich at the expense of the rest of us.
In the mid 1980s a customer of mine was off shoring all their standard fastener production to Asia. The plating solution was dumped directly out the back door into a rice paddy. No OSHA or EPA was added to their cost — giving them an advantage in addition to the lower cost of labor.
This is just one example of how unequal our competition is today. Even worse, this disregard for the health of foreign labor to save a few cents on a package of screws may be the ethical picture of the U.S. instilled in the minds of those effected. Similar examples of disregard for people can be found U.S. operations in Mexico.
I retrained to digital art (after 30 years of conventional type) and design at age 52. For the rest of my working days I watched my costs soar (One computer — I have owned eleven—cost $10,000 and I sold it as obsolete two years later for $175.) My billable time declined due to constant glitches and learning new software upgrades. My income evaporated as clients continued to leave the country, “in order to remain competitive”.
My fellow artists, typesetters, and photographers who did not make the switch went out of business sooner, but although I was adapting the market kept slipping away. If I had to continue working, I have no idea what to adapt to again.
The new technology is by nature labor-lite. Most service jobs will not support a family unless everyone in the family is working. It is more difficult for everyone even with an education — impossible without.
When a major company leaves town and many are out of work, how can you sell your house — there are too many for sale. When you suddenly have no income you can’t afford to travel to out of town interviews. Overnight you are in a Catch-22.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 21, 2005 at 12:15 PM In a conference at Columbia University at the beginning of the month with Cornell West, Luke Harris and Ira Katznelson, the issue of affirmative action and institutional prejudice was broadly discussed. One thing I took away from that was a couple questions.
If the single biggest obstacle to equality in the third quarter of the last century was gross and institutional prejudice in the workplace and if affirmative action and the threat of discrimination lawsuits has seriously dented, if not effectively wiped out, that obstacle, where are the major impediments to equality today? Harris obliquely referred to that issue several times (he has a new book out, The Meaning of Equality in Post-apartheid America) and Katznelson brought up an interesting point of history that might answer the Great Cosby Debate.
In the wake of WWII, the GI Bill made higher education available to an unprecedented portion of the population, including black servicemen. The point I found interesting and relevant was that blacks north of the Mason-Dixon line had little trouble cashing in on that program, but for reasons that Katznelson didn’t go into great depth on (he does have a new book out, though, that does, When Affirmative Action Was White) blacks in the South did have problems.
Cosby was from Philly and had joined the Navy.
The South of today is a far cry from the defeated Confederacy, or even the South of George Wallace.
Instead of driving a divide in the black community, slurring our own with post-modern oreo slurs, we need to ask what progress has been made in the last 50 years, what still needs to be done, and start focusing on programs that address the needs of disadvantaged blacks today, not arguments and programs that worked 50 years ago.
Dr. Cosby’s condemnation of a gangsta hip hop philosophy that condones violence and ghetto-ization is right on target. As whattheheck inferred, we need to start focusing on education.
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 22, 2005 at 6:18 PM Actually, “The Ant and The Grasshopper really ends like this:
When winter came, the grasshopper was cold and hungry and the ant, who had worked and prepared all summer long, was warm and plump.
So the Grasshopper ate the ant.
The End
Posted by Vostok on Oct 23, 2005 at 8:15 PM BTW...there’s a lesson in there somewhere, but I am pretty damn sure you’ll miss it.
Posted by Vostok on Oct 23, 2005 at 8:16 PM Vostok,
“The Ant and the Grasshopper” fable variations I posted are not my opinions. I provided the source of those opinions.
I did not endorse the variations. I put them forward for discussion.
But ......the fable stands amended once again. I like your ending too.
Maybe an even better ending would be the Ant happily sharing with the Grasshopper. And should their positions ever be reversed, the Grasshopper happily sharing with the Ant.
I trust you will point out the lessons I miss out of the goodness of your heart as I would do for you.
I am learning lessons all the time.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 24, 2005 at 8:22 PM Here is another fable with an important lesson
The Little Red Hen
One day as the Little Red Hen was scratching in a field, she found a grain of wheat.
“This wheat should be planted,” she said. “Who will plant this grain of wheat?”
“Not I,” said the Duck.
“Not I,” said the Cat.
“Not I,” said the Dog.
“Then I will,” said the Little Red Hen. And she did.
Soon the wheat grew to be tall and yellow.
“The wheat is ripe,” said the Little Red Hen. “Who will cut the wheat?”
“Not I,” said the Duck.
“Not I,” said the Cat.
“Not I,” said the Dog.
“Then I will,” said the Little Red Hen. And she did.
When the wheat was cut, the Little Red Hen said, “Who will thresh the wheat?”
“Not I,” said the Duck.
“Not I,” said the Cat.“Not I,” said the Dog.
“Then I will,” said the Little Red Hen. And she did.
When the wheat was threshed, the Little Red Hen said, “Who will take this wheat to the mill?”
“Not I,” said the Duck.
“Not I,” said the Cat.“Not I,” said the Dog.
“Then I will,” said the Little Red Hen. And she did.
She took the wheat to the mill and had it ground into flour. Then she said, “Who will make this flour into bread?”
“Not I,” said the Duck.
“Not I,” said the Cat.
“Not I,” said the Dog.
“Then I will,” said the Little Red Hen. And she did.
She made and baked the bread. Then she said, “Who will eat this bread?”
“Oh! I will,” said the Duck.
“And I will,” said the Cat.
“And I will,” said the Dog.
“No, No!” said the Little Red Hen. “I will do that.” And she did.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 25, 2005 at 4:39 PM And then the Cat ate the Little Red Hen.
And then the Dog ate the Cat.
And then another Dog ate that Dog.
The End
A lot of Katrina’s victims had jobs...some more than one. And they still couldn’t afford to get out of there. Meanwhile, some wealthy person charters an airplane to evacuate DOGS out of the way of danger. Of course the moral of the story is… that you can work as hard as you can and still get eaten in a dog eat dog world...or treated worse than a dog.
Such as it is, Bill Cosby can afford to eat a lot, because he has the good fortune of being able to make White people laugh and laugh. But under slightly different circumstances he is any other old Black man found drowned in his attic two weeks after the hurricane left.
Posted by Vostok on Oct 25, 2005 at 8:25 PM Vostok,
Very true.
See .. another lesson that we have shared .
Thank you.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 25, 2005 at 9:22 PM quack quack
I am back.
But what happened to the Duck?
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 25, 2005 at 9:36 PM It is true that you can work your ass off and in the end not approach the goals you set for yourself at the outset. It’s also true that undeserving people often get far more than their share of whatever makes a satisfying life due to their connections, luck, benefits from halo effects, etc.
You can work for a lifetime and watch it all crash to Earth due to a natural or personal disaster.
Hard work, energetic creativity, and mental discipline aren’t magic, there’s no guarantee that they’ll give you a cake-and-ice cream life. Anyone who looks for guarantees beyond the cliche one of eventual death is kidding themselves.
But it’s also kidding oneself to think that, short of a hand-out, anyone improves their life much at all in the absence of diligent effort. That can become addicting very quickly and therefore potentially damaging to one’s character.
It’s very bizarre, I really don’t think of myself as old-fashioned (my views on topics too numerous to list would not make you think of stereotypically “traditional” values), but I find myself wishing that more people “still believed” (did they ever believe?) in certain ideals that I guess have really fallen out of vogue. Being well-mannered instead of bludgeoning people with fashionably shitty attitude, holding oneself mostly responsible for one’s quality of life and the pursuit of improving it, thinking truth has a higher value than winning has, seeing work as beneficial to life and character in and of itself…
I sometimes feel that people don’t believe in character any more. Like it’s not a real thing, just a quaint fiction, like the belief in Santa or something.
Is it just me, or are ideals like this truly passe today?
I accepted assistance while in college, and I can’t say I’ve always been the most strictly upright of men, so there’s no haughtiness in what I say. But for me, the alternative to working hard and cultivating some level of optimistic attitude as the way to make my life better, is to expect some institution to take care of me. And to tell you the truth, although I certainly think there’s a very important role for good, effective governance in civilized life (was there a more direct lesson from Katrina?), I simply don’t think “society” or some other abstraction would take very good care of me if I just went slack.
The racial tip isn’t really my point. I don’t think they’d take very good care of you, either, not for very long. Whatever your skin-melanin level.
Besides, the next time I suffer a personal (or natural) disaster, at least I’ll know I can begin again. Sometimes that’s all you have, is that knowledge. Without it, in my opinion, you’re fucked.
The Orleanians who outlast Katrina and get something started anew will have that knowledge, and it will show.
Why do I know that someone will read this and glibly (foolishly) dub it a right-wing diatribe? When I’m not even right wing!
I wish more people still believed in a few ideals.
Posted by Kuya on Oct 27, 2005 at 3:42 AM Amen!
I am getting a little tired of being cast a “troll” and a Bush-acolyte simply because I believe that we can do better, and that must come from the individual, not the state.
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 27, 2005 at 4:58 AM ‘s ok Jay.
I sometimes get accused of feeding trolls or even being a troll lover .
And rightly so for I do and I am.
Be thankful in all things.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 27, 2005 at 12:03 PM It is the current state of “black america” that has many african americans so disgusted, that they are now considering actually joining the republican party, due to the incompetance of the democratic party. I understand that the republican party probably isn’t any better, but there sense of get up and do for yourself philosophy is increasingly becoming more popular among many african americans.
Posted by jruss on Oct 27, 2005 at 12:36 PM Mr. Muwakkil,
As something of an aside to your article (as it was a minor point you mentioned), by any chance were the former inmates picketing Jesse Jackson in any way affiliated with the Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson and his group B.O.N.D.? Peterson, following a supposed personal epiphany in 1990, is a member of the African-American Far Right whose prominence has slowly increased in recent years. Although he’s rather incoherent on TV debate shows, he’s a somewhat better writer. His critics on the Left (including Dyson) slam him for his attacks on African-American culture and politics and his bitter misogyny toward Black women (he perceives his own mother, a single parent, as a stereotypical “Ghetto Mom"). Peterson has written two books: the first on his epiphany called “From Rage to Responsibility” and a more recent title attacking mainstream Black leadership called “Scam.” The first book was praised by Jewish conservative intellectual Dennis Prager, a questionable action on Prager’s part in light of Peterson’s verbal (if not written) incoherence.
Peterson’s organization B.O.N.D. does work with prison inmates near release from jail in his “Rebuilding the (Black) Home Through Rebuilding the Man” program. Thus a few former inmates may be beholden to him. Another regular action of Peterson is his continuous attacks on Jesse Jackson, as he has “changed” Dr. King’s observed birthday holiday into “National Repudiate Jesse Jackson Day.” Peterson also recommends the Jackson-hating book by Rightist commentator Kenneth Timmerman called “Shakedown.” Thus were those former inmates picketing Jackson indeed disciples of Peterson?--Chris Osborne
Posted by chriso on Oct 27, 2005 at 1:53 PM Hello jruss,
Please give me your take on how African Americans of your acquaintance see the Rep Party and its quotient of evangelical religious control.I can see the appeal for those who have a do-for-yourself attitude, especially since the Dem party is pretty lame at the moment. But the evangelical-political tip is what I’m asking about.
I know you can’t speak for millions, your perceptions will do.
It’s known to everyone who reads or listens to what I say that I consider the Reps to be the party of big money and big religion, with the latter being an even more forbidding influence than the former.
Is it possible to adequately characterize how the African American community views this relationship? Or what it suggests to them about the potential benefits/detriments they and the country would experience?
I am curious to read your thoughts on this.
Posted by Kuya on Oct 28, 2005 at 12:29 AM Kuya,
I would add a third leg to your big money and big religion analysis of the Republican Party.
Joe and Jane Doe who left the Democratic Party because the Dems got drunk on power, entrenched themselves into programs that are starting to show their age, and stopped working towards the future.
But that is just one man’s viewpoint.
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 28, 2005 at 3:35 AM Hello Kuya -
my response to your question comes three fold:
1. religion has always been in the forefront of the african americans thought process when combating the ills of america. current day philosophy doesn’t quite align itself with the earlier way of thinking. since there has been a perceived failure, by the church, in my opinion, thus resulting in a great divide among our people, african americans interpret politics quite seperately from religion.
2. When someone mentions evangelical influences, immediately the white power structure comes to mind. Some may even think white supremacy. How can a african americam with a conscious, align themselves with this group? Well, given the many failed policies and initiatives proposed by the democratic party, given all of the trust me type of political campaigns that always had us on the short end of the stick, given the counterproductive state of mind, emotionally, politically, socially, educationally and economically, given the early death rates, drug usage and incarceration rates, has pushed, progressive, free thinking african americans, who realize that no one, and I mean no one will delivery us, as a people, into a state of productiveness and saneness, other than ourselves.
Remember affiliation doesn’t mean assimulation.
3. All of the emotional and social devices that are counterproductive to any people, appear to be entrench into our minds and souls as african americans. now this is an area directly involving faith. religion in america has never served us well, as a whole. excuses today are many amongst are religious leaders. turn your television on sunday and view some of our leading religious figures. once you get past all the glitz ang glamour - then ask me about, religious groups and self gain.
How do I view the evangelical religious control ? I don’t care. I don’t care about the perceptions. All I know, for a fact, is we have the tools, educationally to over come our current state and like Cosby said; we are not doing it.
Be cool.
Posted by jruss on Oct 28, 2005 at 6:46 AM This is all Bush’s fault.
I won’t rest till he joins Scooter in jail.
Posted by Panther on Oct 28, 2005 at 9:38 PM Hello again, jruss, and also hello to Jay Cline.
jruss, thanks for your views. My response is appallingly tardy, but I’m glad you took a moment to write. I was intrigued by your earlier posts way up-thread, and they triggered my questions.
It’s pretty clear why Af-Ams would feel repeatedly let down by party organizations, Dems not least. I recall a conversation with a former student, a young black man who was highly articulate. I suggested to him that, as an individual, it would have to be him and him alone who decided to invest energy in his own success, and not to wait for American society to do it because he’d never live that long. He told me that “black men aren’t allowed to be individuals.” I remember his words quite vividly, even 15 years later. I think, actually, that my advice to him was realistic. But then, I’ve never much identified with a group nor been typed within one (except briefly as a stoner, when I was a long-haired youth in the 70s), so individualistic thinking is more natural to me.
But still, who can take care of me better than I can?
Be cool too, cousin.
...................
And hello to you as well, Jay Cline. Your post above makes me wonder, are you a disaffected Dem?I’ve never been a registered Dem nor Rep, never feeling that either of those parties represented me. Both parties honestly seem too much attached to the tit of whatever special interests they suckle from, big religion or unions, unilateralists or race-politicians, corporations or political action committees.
Making life better for citizens seems almost incidental to their efforts, rather than their main thrust. Cynical, I know.
I was a registered Libertarian for a few years, some of their rhetoric was appealing to one like me who is something of a freedom junkie and deeply suspicious of people who seek authority over others. But eventually I dropped any party affiliation, don’t really see myself hooking up with any of them in the near term. Heard to many Libertarian supporters in my region say things like, “Our party supports the right to discriminate,” and although I hope they didn’t meant it in a directly poisonous way (hell, maybe they did), it just didn’t set well with me.
I’m discriminating about who I’ll trust, party with, love, or do business with, but considering America’s “discriminatory” history, maybe you can see why I’d shy back.
I am in favor of making the monster smaller (government, I mean), but I also believe that in the absence of some kind of central support, things like racial and gender equality before the law may never have got off the ground, to name only two examples. I certainly think there’s a role for governance in domestic and international affairs, but I don’t align with a party because they’re constantly so, well, full of shit.
I almost erased that epithet, but I’ll keep it in this post. It was my authentic evaluation, even if it’s imprecise. Double-dealers, obfuscators, tricksters, panderers, liars, war-mongers, hypocrites, tolerators and sponsors of dictatorship and mass murder. Yup, full of shit. Flip the coin, elephant or mule, little difference to these eyes.
This is a very late response, perhaps you will not read it because this thread is old, but just in case you cruise back here I ask if you were once a Democrat.
Posted by Kuya on Nov 10, 2005 at 2:59 AM Dead on. Though I’ve never been an ardent party man, on either side of the aisle. My politics are issue-based.
The issues that made me turn away from the Dems is 1) what I said on the 28th, 2) the takeover of the Dem Party by doves.
In a world that is not yet unified, I am more of a hawk.
Posted by Jay Cline on Nov 10, 2005 at 10:20 AM This is interesting, Jay C, I’m glad you cruised back.
As you read above, I’ve never felt much connected to the Reps or Dems. On the hawk/dove scale, I generally tend to feel that warfare creates as many or more problems as it solves, however I’ve read enough history and understand the appetite for power well enough to know that true pacifism is to simply surrender to those with the balls to use a gun to have their way.
Plenty of those types in head-of-state roles the world over. The very thought of that sort of thing having any remote connection to American actions disgusts and dismays me. I know some will say that’s in hand right now, I’ll reserve judgment for the moment. Results will tell the tale, yes?
I’ve read in other posts of yours that you feel it necessary to confront and defeat regimes that are a threat to America and to the world’s progress toward democratization (or at least that they were said by a number of govts and intel agencies to be threatening, refs WMDs).
If I oversimplify or mistake your views, please correct me.
As you may have read in one or another of my posts, I thought the use of military might against al-Qaeda in Afghanistan was correct, but was and remain chagrined by the Iraq War. I would have preferred that the one war be concluded before starting a second, it simply seems tactically and strategically more sound. I also think we’ll be less able to live up to the obligation we have to Afghanistan to help stabilize it so it can have half a chance at rebuilding and becoming a successful state.
I have the concern that dividing our forces to take down Saddam Hussein may have made any chance at fostering stable, democratic institutions in either Afghanistan or Iraq less likely, rather than more so. The seeming impossibility of achieving law and order in either place makes me fear that only new repressive regimes will be able to take root in either place, for a long time to come. I worry that in a generation or so, something on the order of the 1979 Iran Revolution could be likely in Iraq and in Afghanistan, to the extent that their new governments are seen as American puppets. I don’t know if it would be sectarian revolution, but whether it is or not, both Arab culture and Afghan have a long reputation of zero tolerance for foreign or foreign-sponsored rulers. And if they’re brutal governments, as I fear they will be before long, being associated with America may make them more subject to insurgency and also taint us. As per the Shah of Iran, having been set up after our undermining of Mossadegh.
I would be interested to read your response. It’s off topic for this article, but I don’t mind.
Posted by Kuya on Nov 11, 2005 at 2:37 AM Kuya,
I agree that this is off-topic, and I hope you’ll forgive me for forcing the thread over to another topic. I posted my response in Kucinich’s Democrats: It’s the War.
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/discuss/2372/P200/
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